This is cut and pasted from Lyle's Keto Forum. I'm sure he won't mind 
Thought provoking? Right.
Anyhow.
Ok, I realize that I almost never start threads (mainly because I rarely have anything to say) but here's one that goes back to a topic that was being discussed a few weeks back regarding carb-up amounts.
Since I'm too lazy to dig up the thread, I'll recap.
The basic question had to do with amounts of carbs during the carb-up. As I put in the book, the maximum amount of glycogen *storage* is estimated at roughly 10 g/kg over the first 24 hours and maybe 16 g/kg maximum. That's the value I used in the book. Empirically, I also saw folks gaining back too much fat with refeeds far in excess of this. I was never sure where Dan's numbers (16 g/kg and 9 g/kg over the first and second 24 hours came from).
Doc Torsten pointed out that he had used 14-16 g/kg (lean body mass, mind you) carbs over 24 hour periods with good results. his contention was that you have to cover daily energy reuqirements and that not all incoming carbs go to glycogen. Meaning that, to get 10 g/kg STORAGE, you need > 10 g/kg INTAKE.
Over the past few weeks, I've had the opportunity to do a little more experimentation (yes, in conjunctino with the project I keep teasing folks with, it'll be done soon, I promise) as well as discussing things with Doc Torsten in private email.
In short, I agree with him. Before getting into my personal results, I'll explain what I think the discrepancy was (between what folks i knew were getting results wise and his athletes): the composition of the refeed. An unfortunate tendency during carb-loads/refeeds is to eat too much dietary fat (something I did back in the BO diary days). That, along with either too much sucrose or fructose leads to fat regain. This is even more pronounced if carb-ups are extended beyind about 20-24 hours.
So over the past two weeks, I've experimented with progressively higher amounts of carbs. Going into each carb-load, I was seriously glycogen depleted (another key aspect of it).
The first carb-load contained something like 12 g/kg over about a 24 hour span with almost all of it coming from starch (bagels with some milk) and only a small amount of sucrose (it was my birthday, so I got some cupcakes). i went from a weight of 156 lbs with a 30.75" waist on Thu morning to 162 lbs with a 30.5" waist on SAturday morning. I was full, lean and not bloated at all. I also took a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar (shown in rats to improve muscle glycogen synthesis) with each carb meal but no other supplements. I ate roughly 2 g/kg carbs every 3 hours along with a glass of nonfat milk to increase protein and add a few more carbs.
this past weekend, both Torsten and I tried something lsightly different, the addition of small (controlled) amounts of monounsaturated fat. Dan had mentioned the effect of monos on carb-ups and we both watned to see what happened. I started at 156/30.5" waist on Thu morning and went to 161/30.5" waist on Saturday. I consumed something like 14 g/kg of carbs (again, using primarily starch with a small amount of sucrose, rainbow sherbert this time and milk again) with 7 g of olive oil added to each meal. I can't honestly say that the carb-up was superior with the addition of the monounsaturated fat. I have to wonder if my waist wouldn't have dropped again without it's inclusion.
The take home message for folks on the various cyclical keto diets: if you're depleted and keep it clean (meaning minimal fat, mainly starch, glucose or glucose polymers with limited sucrose/fructose), you can eat a real metric assload of carbs to carb-load.
My carb-up revolved around bagels (which I love). Each one has 55 grams of carbs and a typical 'meal' contained 2 with a cup of nonfat milk. This gave a good 130 grams of carbs (2 g/kg lean body mass) with about 30 grams of protein (each bagel has 10 grams and the milk adds another 8 or so).
I would eat that 'meal' every 3 hours or so. I also got a package of 6 cupcakes (that weren't really very good) which got eaten over the length of the carb-up. that was the first weekend.
The second weekend was bascially the same but substitute the cupcakes with rainbow sherbert. When i was in the mood, I'd replace one bagel with 1 cup of the sherbert instead.
Mine [bodyweight] is ~65 kg right now so I was taking in ~130 grams carbs/meal.
Only during waking hours for the most part. If I wake up normally (to pee or something), I'll eat something. If not, I don't.
To be honest, having done carb-ups now both with and w/o the monos, I can't say the monos did much of anything.
this week, I probably put down 16-18 g/kg of carbs and little to no dietary fat (I stuck with bagels, skim milk and rainbow sherbert again so the only fat I got was anything naturally occuring in those foods). I went from 156/30" waist on Thu to 162/30" waist this morning.
Which is pretty much what I got last week with the inclusion of small amount (7 g/meal) of monos at each meal.
- Lyle
Thought provoking? Right.
Anyhow.
Ok, I realize that I almost never start threads (mainly because I rarely have anything to say) but here's one that goes back to a topic that was being discussed a few weeks back regarding carb-up amounts.
Since I'm too lazy to dig up the thread, I'll recap.
The basic question had to do with amounts of carbs during the carb-up. As I put in the book, the maximum amount of glycogen *storage* is estimated at roughly 10 g/kg over the first 24 hours and maybe 16 g/kg maximum. That's the value I used in the book. Empirically, I also saw folks gaining back too much fat with refeeds far in excess of this. I was never sure where Dan's numbers (16 g/kg and 9 g/kg over the first and second 24 hours came from).
Doc Torsten pointed out that he had used 14-16 g/kg (lean body mass, mind you) carbs over 24 hour periods with good results. his contention was that you have to cover daily energy reuqirements and that not all incoming carbs go to glycogen. Meaning that, to get 10 g/kg STORAGE, you need > 10 g/kg INTAKE.
Over the past few weeks, I've had the opportunity to do a little more experimentation (yes, in conjunctino with the project I keep teasing folks with, it'll be done soon, I promise) as well as discussing things with Doc Torsten in private email.
In short, I agree with him. Before getting into my personal results, I'll explain what I think the discrepancy was (between what folks i knew were getting results wise and his athletes): the composition of the refeed. An unfortunate tendency during carb-loads/refeeds is to eat too much dietary fat (something I did back in the BO diary days). That, along with either too much sucrose or fructose leads to fat regain. This is even more pronounced if carb-ups are extended beyind about 20-24 hours.
So over the past two weeks, I've experimented with progressively higher amounts of carbs. Going into each carb-load, I was seriously glycogen depleted (another key aspect of it).
The first carb-load contained something like 12 g/kg over about a 24 hour span with almost all of it coming from starch (bagels with some milk) and only a small amount of sucrose (it was my birthday, so I got some cupcakes). i went from a weight of 156 lbs with a 30.75" waist on Thu morning to 162 lbs with a 30.5" waist on SAturday morning. I was full, lean and not bloated at all. I also took a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar (shown in rats to improve muscle glycogen synthesis) with each carb meal but no other supplements. I ate roughly 2 g/kg carbs every 3 hours along with a glass of nonfat milk to increase protein and add a few more carbs.
this past weekend, both Torsten and I tried something lsightly different, the addition of small (controlled) amounts of monounsaturated fat. Dan had mentioned the effect of monos on carb-ups and we both watned to see what happened. I started at 156/30.5" waist on Thu morning and went to 161/30.5" waist on Saturday. I consumed something like 14 g/kg of carbs (again, using primarily starch with a small amount of sucrose, rainbow sherbert this time and milk again) with 7 g of olive oil added to each meal. I can't honestly say that the carb-up was superior with the addition of the monounsaturated fat. I have to wonder if my waist wouldn't have dropped again without it's inclusion.
The take home message for folks on the various cyclical keto diets: if you're depleted and keep it clean (meaning minimal fat, mainly starch, glucose or glucose polymers with limited sucrose/fructose), you can eat a real metric assload of carbs to carb-load.
My carb-up revolved around bagels (which I love). Each one has 55 grams of carbs and a typical 'meal' contained 2 with a cup of nonfat milk. This gave a good 130 grams of carbs (2 g/kg lean body mass) with about 30 grams of protein (each bagel has 10 grams and the milk adds another 8 or so).
I would eat that 'meal' every 3 hours or so. I also got a package of 6 cupcakes (that weren't really very good) which got eaten over the length of the carb-up. that was the first weekend.
The second weekend was bascially the same but substitute the cupcakes with rainbow sherbert. When i was in the mood, I'd replace one bagel with 1 cup of the sherbert instead.
Mine [bodyweight] is ~65 kg right now so I was taking in ~130 grams carbs/meal.
Only during waking hours for the most part. If I wake up normally (to pee or something), I'll eat something. If not, I don't.
To be honest, having done carb-ups now both with and w/o the monos, I can't say the monos did much of anything.
this week, I probably put down 16-18 g/kg of carbs and little to no dietary fat (I stuck with bagels, skim milk and rainbow sherbert again so the only fat I got was anything naturally occuring in those foods). I went from 156/30" waist on Thu to 162/30" waist this morning.
Which is pretty much what I got last week with the inclusion of small amount (7 g/meal) of monos at each meal.
- Lyle
