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imported_damo
Guest
If you need say 2500 cal a day, and you get at least your 2g per kg of protein does it matter where the cals come from?
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imported_damo
Guest
25% from fats??? I would never normally eat that much fat. I've noticed a lot going on here about EFA essential fatty acids??? Is that right? Dont really follow it, what are these EPAs and CLAs. FAQ talks about them but doesnt say what they are.
Thanks
Thanks
KingProtein
New Member
Damo, you have much to learn. Dietary fat does not equal body fat, it's calories that matter. You can eat an all fat diet, and get leaner. It's important to know that higher amounts of dietary fat lead to higher testosterone levels, which is definitely a good thing for building muscle. (Unless you're on steroids, you need fat to maximize muscle building) Also, EFA's (a subset of fats found in Flax, Fish, Walnuts, etc) have a number of usefull body composition benefits in addition to being plain healthy. I encourage you to look into this with more detail.
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imported_damo
Guest
I am an eager student...
Where can I learn more?
Where can I learn more?
Here are just a few points to keep in mind when thinking about diet and calories.
Fat, carbs, and protein do not offer the body an equal amount of “storable” calories.
About 97% of calories from fat are usable.
About 85% of calories from carbs are usable.
About 40% of calories from protein are usable.
The rest is lost as heat for each of these macronutrients.
Within these efficiency ratios are more variables that effect how they are used by the body. The body prefers to use protein for building tissue, thus it will first try to incorporate incoming amino acids into proteins. If the profile of amino acids is poor (not enough of all the necessary amino acids to finish a particular protein), a greater percentage of those incoming amino acids will be disposed of. Its like getting something you self assemble which has too may of one part and not enough of the other parts; you end of scrapping more stuff simply because it can’t be completely assembled, and is thus good for nothing. This can be overcome by consuming large quantities of even a bad protein though (1gm/lb bodyweight is a large quantity).
Although the body “uses” all forms of carbs in a nearly identical fashion, there are other foods components of carbohydrate foods that can effect how they are used. I’m talking about fiber and resistant starches. Fiber can slow the absorption of carbohydrates thus reducing the amount of insulin present in the blood stream. This apparently has a favorable effect on body composition (all other things being equal).
Fat however is a different animal. Fats come in many different forms (all remain lipids however). The shorter the fat, the more readily it is oxidized for fuel. An example of this includes MCTs and CLA. These two fats are very easy for the body to burn. Long chain saturated fats however are seldom burned except in cases of caloric deficiency and high fatty acid demand.
Although there isn’t a great deal of time to go into substrate oxidation hierarchies, just know that eating fat and carbs at the same time will always result in more of the fat in that particular meal being stored.
In addition to the above, some fats also have other chemical properties that make them preferable to “chemically inert” fats. Examples of fats that actually change your fat cells once inside are omega-3s and CLA.
The amount of fat in the diet can also effect the levels of testosterone, thus Blade’s recommendation of 25% is a good one for anybody who is training naturally.
So in short, you should always start from the mindset that calories in vs calories out will determine whether you are storing energy or losing energy over time. However, if you are careful about your food selection, you can get away with more total calories and still maintain or lose fat.
The take away message:
High fiber Complex carbs are usually preferable to refined simple sugars.
Short chain unsaturated fats are preferable to long chain saturated fats.
Fat calories are more easily stored than any other macronutrient.
Contrary to what uneducated people may claim, people don’t get fat from eating a lot of protein…
Fat, carbs, and protein do not offer the body an equal amount of “storable” calories.
About 97% of calories from fat are usable.
About 85% of calories from carbs are usable.
About 40% of calories from protein are usable.
The rest is lost as heat for each of these macronutrients.
Within these efficiency ratios are more variables that effect how they are used by the body. The body prefers to use protein for building tissue, thus it will first try to incorporate incoming amino acids into proteins. If the profile of amino acids is poor (not enough of all the necessary amino acids to finish a particular protein), a greater percentage of those incoming amino acids will be disposed of. Its like getting something you self assemble which has too may of one part and not enough of the other parts; you end of scrapping more stuff simply because it can’t be completely assembled, and is thus good for nothing. This can be overcome by consuming large quantities of even a bad protein though (1gm/lb bodyweight is a large quantity).
Although the body “uses” all forms of carbs in a nearly identical fashion, there are other foods components of carbohydrate foods that can effect how they are used. I’m talking about fiber and resistant starches. Fiber can slow the absorption of carbohydrates thus reducing the amount of insulin present in the blood stream. This apparently has a favorable effect on body composition (all other things being equal).
Fat however is a different animal. Fats come in many different forms (all remain lipids however). The shorter the fat, the more readily it is oxidized for fuel. An example of this includes MCTs and CLA. These two fats are very easy for the body to burn. Long chain saturated fats however are seldom burned except in cases of caloric deficiency and high fatty acid demand.
Although there isn’t a great deal of time to go into substrate oxidation hierarchies, just know that eating fat and carbs at the same time will always result in more of the fat in that particular meal being stored.
In addition to the above, some fats also have other chemical properties that make them preferable to “chemically inert” fats. Examples of fats that actually change your fat cells once inside are omega-3s and CLA.
The amount of fat in the diet can also effect the levels of testosterone, thus Blade’s recommendation of 25% is a good one for anybody who is training naturally.
So in short, you should always start from the mindset that calories in vs calories out will determine whether you are storing energy or losing energy over time. However, if you are careful about your food selection, you can get away with more total calories and still maintain or lose fat.
The take away message:
High fiber Complex carbs are usually preferable to refined simple sugars.
Short chain unsaturated fats are preferable to long chain saturated fats.
Fat calories are more easily stored than any other macronutrient.
Contrary to what uneducated people may claim, people don’t get fat from eating a lot of protein…
Would you recommend splitting it up into carb/protein and fat/protein?[b said:
I know John Berardi is in favour for the above mentioned, but is it only the immediate insulin response that results in more fat being stores when consumed with carbs, or is it a matter of the available amount of carbs at the present time (those still in the stomach)?
This isnt how they would make you fat, because carbs/protein dont significantly add to total lipogenesis.[b said:
While a large proportion will be burnt, it provides energy.
WHen protein/carb oxidation is high, fat oxidation is low, therefore fat gets stored.
Doesnt make a difference, apart from making food choices more difficult.[b said:
And for one more time, Insulin is not the prime determinant of fat storage. Excess calories is.
Just a terminology issue[b said:
Fatty acids are generally referred to as short (<8C) medium (8-12C) and long (>14c)
There are no short chain unsaturates, and in the normal diet of humans, there is relatively small amounts of long chain saturates (some C18
Keebler Elf
New Member
How come these differences in 'storable calories' dont show up in real life?
According to Lyle, every solid study ever done under ward conditions shows no difference in calorie composition after meeting protein/efa requirements. Everything else is dealing with preferences/hunger etc. He sells a book on keto but admits there are no benefits outside of some appetite suppression over a higher carb or higher fat diet equal in calories.
Bryan's comments seem in disagreement and give weight to fads touted by Beradi/Lemmon/Atkins/food combining etc.
According to Lyle, every solid study ever done under ward conditions shows no difference in calorie composition after meeting protein/efa requirements. Everything else is dealing with preferences/hunger etc. He sells a book on keto but admits there are no benefits outside of some appetite suppression over a higher carb or higher fat diet equal in calories.
Bryan's comments seem in disagreement and give weight to fads touted by Beradi/Lemmon/Atkins/food combining etc.
Because it doesnt matter if the macronutrient is storable or not. The process of denovo lipogenesis is functionally minor in humans. If you can create 10g of fat from carbs/protein then you are doing well. And 10g/day is next to nothing. (this is also confirmed by the fact that adipose fatty acid makeup matches diet fatty acid makeup).[b said:
But this isnt how carbs make people fat.
When you eat carbohydrates it lowers fat oxidation and stores fats from your diet (diet=adipose)
When you eat less carbs, you eat more fat. Fat oxidation goes up, so you burn off more of the fats that you eat.
If you eat >maintenance levles of calories, you get a poistive fat balance and gain fat. The way bryan has worded his awnser is how carbs got such a 'good' dogma behind them because you cant get fat from carbs (because lipogenesis from carbs is relatively minor).
Lyle has some monster posts on MFW recently, under the heading of "low calorie diets dont work" or sumfin like that.
Keebler Elf
New Member
THanx Aaron, you always come thru!
So when eating > maintenance are carbs the better choice for limiting fat gain?
I have been following Lyle's posts over at mfw that is why I questioned Bryan's statement
So when eating > maintenance are carbs the better choice for limiting fat gain?
I have been following Lyle's posts over at mfw that is why I questioned Bryan's statement
which seemed in disagreement.[b said:
The main point I question is
if you eat a diet of 3000kcals, with a 30% protein, 40% carbs and 30% fat. Which is say 500kcals over maintenance. Which part of the diet will the body say is the excess. Highly likely the fats and they will get stored. How much LBM mass you gain will generally depend on current bf%, training, genetics etc.
if you eat a diet of 3000kcals, with a 30% protein, 40% carbs and 30% fat. Which is say 500kcals over maintenance. Which part of the diet will the body say is the excess. Highly likely the fats and they will get stored. How much LBM mass you gain will generally depend on current bf%, training, genetics etc.
Keebler Elf
New Member
I followed Sears' advice of adding extra fat (to make up the extra 500 cals I needed to gain) and ended up with 8 pounds but only 3 or so pds of LBM
That was my second HST cycle and I have not properly 'bulked' since. It took another 2 cycles to get rid of the extra fat, then several mediocre cycles of half a$$ed dieting (gaining 1-2 pds of bw). My overall progress for 6 cycles of HST has been
Date Weight Wrist Waist Fat Lean BF%
04/10/02 145 6.7 30.0 10 135 7
02/26/03 160 6.7 31.5 18 142 11
Not bad but I think it could of been better without Sears' help
and adding carbs instead of fat when eating > maint.
Edit: Arggg, I cant get the numbers to line up
That was my second HST cycle and I have not properly 'bulked' since. It took another 2 cycles to get rid of the extra fat, then several mediocre cycles of half a$$ed dieting (gaining 1-2 pds of bw). My overall progress for 6 cycles of HST has been
Date Weight Wrist Waist Fat Lean BF%
04/10/02 145 6.7 30.0 10 135 7
02/26/03 160 6.7 31.5 18 142 11
Not bad but I think it could of been better without Sears' help
and adding carbs instead of fat when eating > maint.Edit: Arggg, I cant get the numbers to line up
I'm interested as well...what if someone is at, or slightly above fat setpoint, Leptin is normal ,hormones are good, anabolic/fed state is achieved, if overeating/bulking,would it make sense to eat a relatively low fat diet? 25-30% fat cals don' make sense in this senario....thoughts?[b said:
cheers