Ketogenic diet

C

cilius

New Member
Hi everyone,
I’ve been reading about CKD lately, and i want to give it a try starting next Monday (or Sunday). The original version, as far as i can see, is ketosis for about 5 days, and carbing up on Friday and Saturday for app. 36 hours. The confusing part is that i read about someone carbing up on Wednesdays as well (moderately ofcourse) – what is the deal about that?
The article on thinkmuscle gives guidelines to the amount of carbs during carb-up, is that still valid?
It is impossible to eat 0 carbs during the day, but where is the borderline for an effective vs. ineffective CKD when it comes to daily card intake?
Is there any kind of dietry i should (fatburning effect etc etc) consume?
Thx
Cilius
 
I wish I could be of more help with this one, but I have never done a strick Keto diet. The way I did it was to just eat low carb most of the time. I would eat carbs after training and refeed 2x week. once for 12 hours of Sundays and then a5-6 hour refeed on Wednesdays after training.

Steve
 
There is a great book called "The Ketogenic Diet" that discusses a lot of strategies for managing carb intake when following a Keto diet.

If you've never followed a Keto Diet before I would recommend ordering the book. Understanding the diet will help you minimize muscle loss while on the diet.

The level of carbs you consume daily to stay in Ketosis varies with individuals. I usually have to keep it around 20 to 30 a day. You can get ketostix at your local drug store to measure whether you are in ketosis or not.

I would recommend the TKD. It has you consume carbs before and during your workout so your energy is high. The object is to deplete liver glycogen by the end of your workout returning you to ketosis. The book suggest for every two sets you consume 5 grams of carbs. However, if you are performing a lot of work the requires you go above 100grams the suggestion is to consume half the carbs 30 minutes prior to your workout and the balance during your workout.

Hope that helps.
 
Jessejr: This is my first diet ever, so yes to it is my first CKD as well. The TKD sounds interesting, so say I am doing a 16 set workout - the recommendation is then to take 40 grams of carbs, some prior workout and the rest during the workout... what about refeeding during the weekend then?
 
Cilius,

If you are carrying a fair amount of bodyfat, that is you can grab a handful at the waist line then a Ketogenic diet is for you, or if you have some bodyfat and want to get really ripped. However, if you are already lean I would suggest starting out with the diet that Bryan has posted on this website. Bryan gives a lot of pointers on configuring a basic diet.

You can then take Bryan's diet and manipulate your carbs/fat to adjust your bodyfat.

A Ketogenic diet is pretty intense and you have to consume a lot of protien to keep the mass on. I have never followed a Ketogenic diet when attempting to gain mass. It is great for cutting and I always use it for that.

You are right on the 40 grams of carbs. However, that is just a starting point. You may find you can tolerate more, or less. How much you consume will be dependent on how quickly you want to return to ketosis after your workout.

Most suggested diets give you a good starting point. From there you have to experiment with the carbs, fats, and protien to find something that works for you.

I always use the Twinlab product "Carbo Fuel" to carb up before and during a workout. Make sure you count the calories/carbs for this drink as it figures into your daily totals.

By the way the ISBN# for the Ketogenic diet
book is:0-9671456-0-0. This book will provides a lot of information that can help in understanding the interaction and role of carbs, fat, and protien. It will definitely help you configure a diet to minimize bodyfat.

Let me know how you do.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Jesse

Regards,
Jesse
 
My current BF is 14 so i wont call myself lean nor fat
tounge.gif
but I want to get down to 10%, which should'nt be that difficult with my 97kg's.. hopefully not.
Think I am going to buy some sticks to check whether I am in ketosis or not. And aim for going back into ketosis 2 hours after workout... I am going to check out that book you recommend - thx for helping out.
I'll keep ya all updated in this post :) (if somebody should care :D )
 
Cilius,

Definitely interested in your results. Are you going to follow the diet for the complete cycle? If so, when do you think you would be done?

Regards,
Jesse
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If you are carrying a fair amount of bodyfat, that is you can grab a handful at the waist line then a Ketogenic diet is for you, or if you have some bodyfat and want to get really ripped. However, if you are already lean I would suggest starting out with the diet that Bryan has posted on this website. Bryan gives a lot of pointers on configuring a basic diet.
Click to expand...
<span =''>

Why do you say that ?

Rainier.
 
RainerWolfcastle,

I made that statement because it has been my experience that a Ketogenic diet is one of the best ways to drop bodyfat fast.

Regards,
Jesse
 
My plan was to do a 4-5 week CKD, it pretty much depends on my results, i.e. want to get down to 10%. The diet is starting next monday, I haven't had a chance to complete it for today... so it will be in the 10's of a 12-10-8-5-5neg with only one week of the 12's and 10's.

I will make weekly measurements, and I've bought a caliper... hopefully I will be able to do it accurately :)
 
update on the CKD
I got on the diet train a little late, so I still have 4 days to go. But so far the results have been magnificent. I have dropped from 14.5 to just below 10% in a bit more than 3 weeks – yes, I am all exited.

There has been a 500 kcal deficit everyday except during Friday and Saturday, where the calories respectively have been 4800 and 2800, with a minimum of fat, and plenty of carbs. (Actually I’ve been drinking a couple of drinks every Friday...)

My LBM has gone up 1.5 kg from 82.9 to 84.4 – I don’t know how that can happen, but you won’t hear me complaining. Exercise during the diet has been HST, with one week of twelve’s, one week of eights and two weeks of fives – still working on that last week. I am aiming to reach 9% bf, which is 0.6 less than I have now… not impossible.

Jessejr: Sorry for being kind a slow to do the follow up...
blush.gif
 
wow, good stuff, cilius. congrats on your results. the keto diet seems quite powerful indeed. i'm currently vegetarian though and actually eating a mostly vegan-ish diet, so cutting down carb intake so drastically may be near impossible for me unless i use more [soy and rice] protein shakes than whole foods and/or start consuming large amounts of eggs and dairy again. i'd prefer not to, but if my first bulking cycle or so gives me too much BF, i guess i might have to consider it.

BTW, if i may ask, were you able to stay regular on the diet? does it allow for non-starchy vegetables and greens so as not to leave out fiber intake?
 
Great Progress!
thumbs-up.gif


Have you been following Lyle's interview over at Wanna Be Big? Lots of interesting insights. Particularly the after workout carb up.

How have the workouts been during the week (Wed &amp; Fri) with strict CKD?

I think I would prefer the TKD altho the Zone comes out on top for me, cos of sheer lack of hunger and always getting just enough carbs to stay out of keto.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (tai4ji2x @ Dec. 02 2002,7:19)]wow, good stuff, cilius. congrats on your results. the keto diet seems quite powerful indeed. i'm currently vegetarian though and actually eating a mostly vegan-ish diet, so cutting down carb intake so drastically may be near impossible for me unless i use more [soy and rice] protein shakes than whole foods and/or start consuming large amounts of eggs and dairy again. i'd prefer not to, but if my first bulking cycle or so gives me too much BF, i guess i might have to consider it.
BTW, if i may ask, were you able to stay regular on the diet? does it allow for non-starchy vegetables and greens so as not to leave out fiber intake?
Click to expand...
Tai,

I think it is possible to be Vegetarian and get cut altho a little more work.

Here is how I would sum up the basics for fat loss:

Have a calorie deficit (~500 below maint.)
Get enough protein to minimize muscle loss (~0.8 to 1g per pd. LBM)
Get enough fats/essential fats (as per Bryan's Eating For Size Article)
Make the remainder of cals. from carbs (preferably veggies/fruits)

I think you would have to rely on powders in order to get the calories low without sacrificing protein and fats.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]BTW, if i may ask, were you able to stay regular on the diet? does it allow for non-starchy vegetables and greens so as not to leave out fiber intake?
Click to expand...
I had salad to most of my dinners, but my diet mainly consisted of eggs, turkey, chicken, beef, cheese etc etc - and I managed to keep quite low on the carbs. My carb-up during friday and saturday never worked out - to be honest, I had a few drinks every friday (sometime saturdays as well)... but I never got really drunk... guess it worked out nicely anyway.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Have you been following Lyle's interview over at Wanna Be Big? Lots of interesting insights. Particularly the after workout carb up
Click to expand...
Nope, unfortunately not - but I will check it immediately. I've been wondering a lot about it lately...
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How have the workouts been during the week (Wed &amp; Fri) with strict CKD?
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I had no problem working out at all... ofcourse there was times, when I rather wanted to stay at home, but that happens to me every now and then. The calorie deficit was notice able, but not much. Friday I was all exited about the carb-up (nothing like carbs when you cant have them)...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Keebler Elf @ Dec. 04 2002,1:36)]I think you would have to rely on powders in order to get the calories low without sacrificing protein and fats.
Click to expand...
yeah, that's what i was afraid of. :confused:

i know that i could probably do more low-carb vegan whole foods if i REALLY tried, but that might be more effort than i'd be willing to put in. (shopping and preparation SUCKS)

we'll see though - it all depends on how my first cycle goes, and how much bodyfat i gain. if not bad, then when i start cutting i'll just try to have a deficit with less of the actual starches (rice, noodles , etc).

otherwise, i guess i'll make the sacrifice. going back to relying on eggs/dairy will be my absolute last option.
 
cilius, if i may,

i'm thinking about starting CKD, since i hae a fair amount of fat around my waist. could you tell me what a typical day looked like for you, diet wise, and did you do your w/o on mon-wed-fri :confused:? pls give me some more info on this subject.
 
Sure, a typical diet would be something like:

Breakfast
Eggs    150 g
Whey protein  20 g

Lunch:
Salmon    140 g
Flaxseeds    20g
Mozarella    25g

Pre W/O:
Whey protein  35 g
Sunfloweroil    15 g

Post W/O:
Cassein    35 g
Sunfloweroil    15 g

Dinner:
Chicken breast  200 g
Sunfloweroil    10 g
Flaxseeds    20g

Latesnack:
Groundbeef 12%  100 g
Sunfloweroil    10 g

Before bed:
Cassein    40 g
Sunfloweroil    15 g

That’s what a typical training day would look like. On non trainingdays the w/o nutrition is replaced by a proper meal. The above mentioned plan gives me a deficit on about 500 kcal.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I made that statement because it has been my experience that a Ketogenic diet is one of the best ways to drop bodyfat fast.
Click to expand...

Why is this so ? Isn't it just a case of calories in and caloreis out ?

Don't ketogenic diets leave your muscles resistant to insulin ? Isn't that bad ?

Rainier.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (RainierWolfcastle @ Dec. 08 2002,1:37)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I made that statement because it has been my experience that a Ketogenic diet is one of the best ways to drop bodyfat fast.
Click to expand...
Why is this so ? Isn't it just a case of calories in and caloreis out ?
Don't ketogenic diets leave your muscles resistant to insulin ? Isn't that bad ?
Rainier.
Click to expand...
Truth be told, there won't be that much diference between a keto and a moderate carb diet, fat loss wise, provided protein intake is adequate and calories are the same.

Even Lyle said this before.

What I think makes a diference is going high carb low fat (less than 30 % fat). This, in my experience, will cause a lot more muscle loss than the other options due to impairing your endocrine system. Not good.

Personally, I think a diet with around 150-200 gr of carbs, taken on the form of high GI carbs around your workout on training days and from veggies on non training days might be the best.

Regardless what any certified nutricionist might say, I believe low carb (low grain) is healthier provided the fats are of the right type.
 
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