Can anyone else relate to any of this!

[jboy]

http://207.42.78.201/StarvSympt.html

This makes me think I need to take a break from the cutting diet and spend some time at maintenance calorie levels! I can relate to too much of this!!!

 

[jwjpilot]

Quote[/b] (jboy @ Feb. 12 2004,3:35)]http://207.42.78.201/StarvSympt.html
This makes me think I need to take a break from the cutting diet and spend some time at maintenance calorie levels! I can relate to too much of this!!!

Wow! Thanks for posting this.

I follow a modified CKD diet (3 weeks between refeeds), as the keto part progresses these symptoms become more and more pronounced. For about 3-4 days after the refeed I am OK, but then I start displaying these symptoms more and more as time goes on.

As I read the article I wondered, what is the answer? How should we lose weight if it is so hard on the body? Maybe exercise should be foremost, and only augmented by diet.
I'm not sure.


Thanks Jboy
JWJ

 

[KingProtein]

The 'refeed' period described me perfectly for the whole month of January. I'd been dieting steadily for several months previously and had been locked in. Once I came off the diet, however, my willpower was nonexistant and I ate all day long, every day for several weeks, at least 5-6000 calories each day (at least. and yes, I counted). I would've eaten more, too, the only thing stopping me was either feeling bad about eating so much, or just plain running out of food.
If you're having such symptoms, I wouldn't chalk it up entirely to just being on a diet. I think anytime you are well below your set point bodyfat level, your body will start to rebel.

 

[Aaron_F]

If you want to get lean, you have ot live thru the symptoms of starvation.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Quote[/b] (jwjpilot @ Feb. 12 2004,2:29)]Maybe exercise should be foremost, and only augmented by diet.
I'm not sure.
Thanks Jboy
JWJ

In my opinion yes. Anytime the cardio or other form of additional exercise doesn't interfere with performance (if it is important) then yes, "burning" calories should come before simply withholding calories.

 

[anoopbal]

Quote[/b] ]In my opinion yes. Anytime the cardio or other form of additional exercise doesn't interfere with performance (if it is important) then yes, "burning" calories should come before simply withholding calories

I am just curious.What difference does it make?

Anoop

 

[KingProtein]

Quote[/b] (anoopbal @ Feb. 12 2004,11:37)]

Quote[/b] ]In my opinion yes. Anytime the cardio or other form of additional exercise doesn't interfere with performance (if it is important) then yes, "burning" calories should come before simply withholding calories

I am just curious.What difference does it make?
Anoop

Agreed. Plus with 'burning' calories by exercise, you have the issue of increased cortisol to deal with. Not sure how important that is in the end, but something to think about.

The body tends to look at overall energy balance. You cannot fool it to think you're not dieting by eating a normal amount of calories and then exercising your way to deficit - the body is still going to know you're in a deficit.

On the other hand though, exercise does help assist by providing some calorie partitioning properties.

 

[Steve McDermott]

IMO, cyclic dieting is the way to avoid most of these symptoms (or at least limit them). What I do involves eating low calories on non HST days and then eating over maintenance on HST days all while ensuring a modest caloric deficit for the week. It takes longer to lean out, but is more effective in the long run. SD is beneficial as well because it causes you to eat at maintenance for around 2 weeks before returning to a hypocaloric diet.

 

[jwjpilot]

Quote[/b] (KingProtein @ Feb. 13 2004,6:37)]Agreed. Plus with 'burning' calories by exercise, you have the issue of increased cortisol to deal with. Not sure how important that is in the end, but something to think about.
The body tends to look at overall energy balance. You cannot fool it to think you're not dieting by eating a normal amount of calories and then exercising your way to deficit - the body is still going to know you're in a deficit.
On the other hand though, exercise does help assist by providing some calorie partitioning properties.

I don't know about the cortisol issues.

However is there evidence the body looks at total energy balance, as opposed to exercise/diet calories in/out?


My thought was it may be easier to fool the body with exercise, not that that thought was based on anything but personal experience. It is far easier for me emotionally and psychologically to hit a 1000 calorie deficit from exercise as opposed to a food calorie deficit. Many days I feel I can't bear eating hypocaloritically, but I almost always can handle the exercise to reach the same deficit.

Anyhow that is only my experience.


JWJ

 

[KingProtein]

Quote[/b] ]It is far easier for me emotionally and psychologically to hit a 1000 calorie deficit from exercise as opposed to a food calorie deficit.

That's pretty funny, I'm exactly the opposite.

Anyway, to go into depth on the details of the starvation response, it's all probably related to the hormone leptin. Understand that leptin is emitted primarily by fat cells and (very) basically signals the brain how fat we are. So, while you may think you can trick the body by losing weight at a very slow rate, or by getting your deficit from exercise instead of from a lower caloric intake, your body is still keeping track of how fat you are through leptin and is going to tell your brain that you're starving.
Of course, another consequence of this is that if you diet yourself down to a ripped 6% bodyfat, good luck trying to stay there. Even if you restore your calories to maintenance once you're there, your body is still going to think you're starving based on the message leptin is sending.

Some points to add,
- leptin drops in any diet, any time you lose weight, and unfortunately disproportionately to how much weight you've actually lost. If you're only dieting to a sane bodyfat level though, you'll probably restore leptin most of the way (though not all the way) to pre-diet levels. It's only when you go for extreme's that you get into this starvation response big time.
-Cyclic dieting probably can ward off some of these symptoms for a time, until you get into extreme bf% ranges. This has probably less to do with leptin and more to do with affecting short term hunger and satiation signals. (Because, while leptin is quick to rebound during a carb refeed, it is just as quick to drop once you resume dieting.)
-if you're naturally lean, disregard everything I've written in this last post. You'll likely never need to worry about leptin and the starvation response.

 

[KingProtein]

Quote[/b] (jwjpilot @ Feb. 13 2004,10:01)]

Quote[/b] ]However is there evidence the body looks at total energy balance, as opposed to exercise/diet calories in/out?

By the way, this is a good question, I'm gonna go ahead and consult Lyle on this one. I always remember him saying that it didn't matter how the deficit was formed, but I'll double check. Plus it's also possible that he's since found evidence to the contrary.

Quote[/b] ]What I do involves eating low calories on non HST days and then eating over maintenance on HST days all while ensuring a modest caloric deficit for the week.

I always thought of doing this, but the other way around (low calorie HST days, higher calorie off days), considering that protein synthesis is most elevated at 24hrs post workout.

 

[KingProtein]

A quick search on Lyle's forum produced this;


Basically my original question there was, does how you achieve a calorie deficit make any difference in leptin levels?

-----------------

Minimally at best. Different diet composition, whether you use exercise or caloric deficit, it all results in *essentially* identical leptin levels (there's a little bit of slop with some rather poorly designed studies finding slight differences in leptin under different conditions).

Lyle

 

[jboy]

I would tend to think that from a psychological stand point, using exercise to produce a caloric deficit would be beneficial Vs just depriving yourself of food. It may not make much difference from a physiological point of view, but many of the starvation symptoms seem to be psychological.

Also, as was pointed out, I think many of the issues that we experience stem from being below your set point, not just because you are in a caloric deficit. Your body will try very hard to convince you to recover the lost energy stores.

I know this has been debated many times, but what are everyone’s thoughts on lowering your set point by maintaining a lower %BF for a long duration? Is it possible? Now that I've gone through the effort and pain of many weeks of underfeeding, I wonder if I should switch to maintenance calories for a few weeks while fighting that constant urge to overeat. Will that allow me to lower my set point, or will I have to endlessly fight my body to sustain my current weight?

 

[jdreich]

Hi KingProtein,

Can you point me to Lyle's board?

Thanks,

JD

 

[jboy]

I'll beat him to it!

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com

 

[jdreich]

Thanks for the link.

JD

 

[jwjpilot]

Quote[/b] (KingProtein @ Feb. 13 2004,11:32)]

Quote[/b] ]It is far easier for me emotionally and psychologically to hit a 1000 calorie deficit from exercise as opposed to a food calorie deficit.

That's pretty funny, I'm exactly the opposite.

Yah - We are all unique. I guess it shows once again there are few black and white things, but lots of gray.

Quote[/b] ]
A quick search on Lyle's forum produced this;


Basically my original question there was, does how you achieve a calorie deficit make any difference in leptin levels?

-----------------

Minimally at best. Different diet composition, whether you use exercise or caloric deficit, it all results in *essentially* identical leptin levels (there's a little bit of slop with some rather poorly designed studies finding slight differences in leptin under different conditions).

Lyle

Thanks for doing the search and posting that KP.

So Lyle says that leptin is essentially not affected by the way the deficit is created. If Lyle says it I believe him.

But is leptin the only factor involved in the "starvation response"? I have no idea. I hope someone with more knowledge of this has some comments.

 

[micmic]

Quote[/b] (jwjpilot @ Feb. 14 2004,1:31)]But is leptin the only factor involved in the "starvation response"?

Low testosterone is responsible for many of the symptoms described. This is another advantage of people who use drugs, they can diet down without experiencing so much upset.

 

[Aaron_F]

Caloric intake and leptin all can control testosterone. So basically it will all boil down to leptin. Leptin is affected by caloric flow and overal fat levels, other hormones are involved, but in the end most of the negative effects of starvation/dieting will all associate with leptin.

 

[Mindwraith]

Cyclic dieting can solve this issue to an extent. The way I'd do it is eat over mantainence for 2 days, eat far under for 3. Before your body realizes you're starving you feed it for a solid 2 days. This is one good way actually tricking your body. It works, and faster than other diets in my experience.