No post workout carbs when dieting?

[LittleBigHorn]

I heard someone mention that when you train with HST principles, you should leave out the post workout carbs if you're cutting up. Is this true, and if so, what is it based on?

Thanks for your time!

 

[Nemesis7884]

it depends on your diet/macronutrition ratios

if youre for example on a ketogenic diet and dont eat carbs at all (or nearly no) then of course you would reduce carbs post workout or dont eat them at all

but if you do eat carbs on your diet dont leave them out after your workout! after your workout when you used your energie (carbs) your body needs to refill its glycogen "account"?! (whats the noun for save?&#33...if you dont give your body the desired carbs it will just take the energie out of the consumed protein which is not what you want (gluconeogenesis).

however, you could reduce carbs or dont eat carbs prior to your workout to increase fat burn during it

 

[LittleBigHorn]

Thanks nemesis!

I'm on a reduced carb diet, but I still place heavy emphasis on them in the morning and in my post workout meal.
I guess it would be wise to reduce the amount of high GI carbs consumed immediately after working out.
I've never taken carbs prior to lifting, though. I only take a small amount of whey with water, and creatine as well.

Anyone else have any input on this?

 

[BoSox]

Quote[/b] ]however, you could reduce carbs or dont eat carbs prior to your workout to increase fat burn during it

fat isn't burned during the workout, glycogen is.


Post-workout is the best time for high GI carbs, as most will refuel glycogen stores and create an insulin spike to help protein absorption

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (BoSox @ Nov. 19 2004,3:56)]Post-workout is the best time for high GI carbs, as most will refuel glycogen stores and create an insulin spike to help protein absorption

I personally take them pre and post and although I agree they should be taken post work out Bosox didn't mention when or how long post workout. This is from the FAQ.

Quote[/b] ]There is some interesting research on protein coming out that indicates that when you add carbs to your protein, more of it gets "trapped" (incorporated into gut proteins and/or oxidized in the gut and liver) in the gut. This is because of the anabolic effect of insulin on enterocytes. Insulin isn't really anabolic in skeletal muscle but it helps nonetheless.

Anyway, my point is this, Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle. Then take your carbs one hour later, which still allows you to take advantage of the metabolic "window" post workout.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Ever since I started taking 30g (3 tbsp) dextrose pre-workout, I've felt a lot better. When I took it after, I'd be kind've light-headed (still drink tons of water) for a bit. It'd take awhile for that to subside.

When I take the dextrose pre-workout, I definitely notice myself coming back from the 'gym' (my basement

) much more energetic and...alive.

 

[LittleBigHorn]

Alright, thanks for the input everyone!

 

[BoSox]

exactly how much High GI carbs do you take, either pre or post workout? I've never really known what is optimal, I can't find anywhere on this site that gives a certain number for carbs.

Dan?

 

[LittleBigHorn]

Quote[/b] (BoSox @ Nov. 20 2004,12:25)]exactly how much High GI carbs do you take, either pre or post workout? I've never really known what is optimal, I can't find anywhere on this site that gives a certain number for carbs.
Dan?

This would be interesting to hear.
I usually go with the recommendations on my maltodextrin- or dextrose container. That would be around 60 grams (although the net weight isn't 100% carbs). When bulking up I sometimes ate candy for my post workout recovery. I don't know how wise that was, but I noticed no surge in bodyfat/water retention levels during the weeks when I did that, and the effect was essentially the same. It was sort of a reward for a hard hour of work, if you will.
I suppose one's body doesn't differentiate between different types of high GI carbs in this scenario; at least not to a great degree.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

I use 1 Tablespoon of Honey (about 32 grams of Carbs) pre workout because of the Study Below. But I follow Bryan's plan on the Post, I take my post Protein then wait about an hour then I eat complex and simple carbs, with my Dinner, usually Rice, Potatoes or Noodles and some veggies or beans.


From one of Tipton's Studies

Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters
anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab
281: E197–E206, 2001.

Quote[/b] ]A combination of amino acids, to increase amino acid
availability, and carbohydrates, to stimulate insulin
release, should be a potent stimulator of net muscle
protein synthesis. We recently demonstrated that
ingestion of a bolus of 6 g of amino acids combined
with 35 g of carbohydrates at both 1 and 3 h postexercise
resulted in muscle protein anabolism (21).

Quote[/b] ]In the present study, the effectiveness of the drink
appeared to be greater when it was consumed immediately
before exercise (PRE) compared with immediately
after exercise (POST). Approximately 209 +/- 42
mg of phenylalanine were taken up across the leg in
the PRE trial, whereas only 81 +/- 19 mg of phenylalanine
were taken up during POST. Whereas the response
of muscle protein metabolism increased dramatically
and then declined within 1 h to basal levels
after EAC consumption in the POST trial, the response
was sustained in the PRE trial. Net balance increased
during exercise, declined slightly, and then increased a
second time after exercise when the drink was consumed
before exercise. The length of the effect, plus
higher blood flow during exercise in the PRE trial,
resulted in significantly greater total uptake over the
entire study period.

Before I get a bunch of response of ONLY 6 GRAMS of Amino Acid, remember this was a bolus solution made of differing Amino Acids and is not the same as a protein supplement.

Also from Pre-Post Exercise Nutrition in Bryan's Articles

Quote[/b] ]There has been some controversy about which type of carbohydrate is best for post exercise glycogen replenishment. Some argue that simple sugars such as dextrose are best after exercise. Others say that drinks with glucose polymers are best. Still others say that there is no need to buy fancy sports drinks and that simply eating a meal high in carbohydrates such as pasta or rice is sufficient. Studies have shown no difference between different types of carbohydrates eaten post exercise and the rate of glycogen replenishment as long as sufficient quantities of carbohydrate are consumed (Burke 1997). Even when the post exercise meal contains other macronutrients such as proteins and fats, the rate of glycogen replenishment is not hindered, given there is sufficient carbohydrate in the meal as well. These studies tell us that the rate-limiting step in glycogen replenishment after exercise is not in digestion or the glycemic index of a given source of carbohydrate. Over a 24-hour period it is the total amount of carbohydrate consumed that is important.

The rate-limiting step in glucose uptake during exercise is determined by the rate of phosphorylation once glucose has entered the muscle cell (Halseth 1998). Glycogen synthase activity is also a possible rate-limiting step (Halseth 1998). These processes are not readily influenced by the composition of the "post exercise" meal, but rather by the extent to which glycogen was depleted during exercise as well as the amount of carbohydrate and fat consistently included in the diet.

It is recommended that at least 0.7 - 1.0 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight be consumed immediately after exercise and then again 1-2 hours later. If you experience gastric upset try increasing the amount of water you consume with the carbs. Try to shoot for a total of 7-10 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight over a 24-hour period 3 for maximum glycogen storage. This may well be in excess of caloric needs but it is important to shoot for this intake if glycogen storage is your primary goal.

 

[Nemesis7884]

Quote[/b] ]It is recommended that at least 0.7 - 1.0 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight be consumed immediately after exercise and then again 1-2 hours later

Quote[/b] ]Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle. Then take your carbs one hour later, which still allows you to take advantage of the metabolic "window" post workout

??

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Nemesis7884 @ Nov. 24 2004,7:14)]

Quote[/b] ]It is recommended that at least 0.7 - 1.0 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight be consumed immediately after exercise and then again 1-2 hours later

Quote[/b] ]Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle. Then take your carbs one hour later, which still allows you to take advantage of the metabolic "window" post workout

??

Yeah, I see your confusion. I am not sure why there are two different theories, or perhaps it was just one was from the articles section which I would bet Bryan wrote before the post in the FAQ, I am only quessing here. Maybe he saw something else in another study, I haven't checked into the references and I probably won't because I use the one hour post workout strategy and it works for me.

I know that is a very close minded approach

 

[zoomz]

Yes Dan I pretty much do the same only I do this setup 2 times a day because of my am/pm workouts; usually 35g carbs pre for both workouts and about 1/2 protein and then take in about 150g carbs total at the 2 and 3 hr post.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (zoomz @ Nov. 24 2004,10:12)]Yes Dan I pretty much do the same only I do this setup 2 times a day because of my am/pm workouts; usually 35g carbs pre for both workouts and about 1/2 protein and then take in about 150g carbs total at the 2 and 3 hr post.

To try and get back on Topic, do you also do this when cutting and if so do you notice any problems with cutting?

 

[Nemesis7884]

a pm from bryan:

Quote[/b] ] Per-workout carbs can inhibit subcutaneous fat mobilizaiton though so it is a good idea not to use carbs if you are trying to cut.

some people at 1fast400 forums told me that they got fat when they used dextrose (or maltodextrine) post workout, so they switched to complex carbs (oatmeal) which was betther...

I am still wondering about the post workout strategy...because all the articles I know recommend the "immediatly after 0.7g - 1g carb strategy"....

 

[Zack]

Quote[/b] (Nemesis7884 @ Nov. 24 2004,4:14)]

Quote[/b] ]It is recommended that at least 0.7 - 1.0 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight be consumed immediately after exercise and then again 1-2 hours later

Quote[/b] ]Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle. Then take your carbs one hour later, which still allows you to take advantage of the metabolic "window" post workout

??

I really think Bryan should adress this.

Looks very strange. Two totally different recommendations. What gives?

YIP
Zack

 

[Zack]

Quote[/b] (Zack @ Nov. 25 2004,6:28)]

Quote[/b] (Nemesis7884 @ Nov. 24 2004,4:14)]

Quote[/b] ]It is recommended that at least 0.7 - 1.0 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight be consumed immediately after exercise and then again 1-2 hours later

Quote[/b] ]Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle. Then take your carbs one hour later, which still allows you to take advantage of the metabolic "window" post workout

??

I really think Bryan should adress this.
Looks very strange. Two totally different recommendations. What gives?
YIP
Zack

Bumping this thread, hope to get an answer.

Zack

 

[Aaron_F]

im sure we have discussed this before

while taking carbs with the protein increases intestinal epithelium uptake of the aminos, the actually effect is rather small, and not really worth worrying about

 

[Zack]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Nov. 26 2004,12:12)]im sure we have discussed this before
while taking carbs with the protein increases intestinal epithelium uptake of the aminos, the actually effect is rather small, and not really worth worrying about

I am not sure who you answered there Aaron, but the bottom line is that there are TWO entirely different recommendations for how to get the optimal postworkout meal.

Coming from the same source.

Which one is the more correct one?

Because since they both address the same particular type of situation, they both can't be right.

It's not a question about different goals or anything like that.

/Zack

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Quote[/b] (Zack @ Nov. 26 2004,4:24)]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Nov. 26 2004,12:12)]im sure we have discussed this before
while taking carbs with the protein increases intestinal epithelium uptake of the aminos, the actually effect is rather small, and not really worth worrying about

I am not sure who you answered there Aaron, but the bottom line is that there are TWO entirely different recommendations for how to get the optimal postworkout meal.
Coming from the same source.
Which one is the more correct one?
Because since they both address the same particular type of situation, they both can't be right.
It's not a question about different goals or anything like that.
/Zack

There is no confusion. A recomendation is just that, a recomendation. In the article addressing pre-and post workout nutrition, the recommendation for post workout carbs was based on research investigating post workout carb consumption. Nevertheless, a person will always need to asses his or her situation and plan their diet accordingly.

The discussion about amino acids and carbs effecting post-prandial distribution of amino acids was addressed by Aaron. As is often the case, I can't really put it any simpler than others already have.

If there is still confusion about how many carbs a person needs, they first need to determine how many calories they need. Then, start with protein and allocate what you need. Then move to fat and make sure you have just enough in the right combinations. Finally, add in carbs until you reach your caloric requiremenets.

Your total carb intake over a 24 hour period is more important than how many you eat right before or after you train. Nevertheless, some people like to put most of their carbs around or right after they train, when insulin sensitivity is high. Other spread it out over the day using lower GI carbs.

If it helps, you can estimate that the effects of insulin last about 4 hours. So, if you've had a high carb mean within about 3 hours, the body will still be acting as if carbs are a plenty. Insulin does effect amino acid uptake to a certain extent, but research has indicated that the supply of amino acids to cells is more important than insulin when it comes to protein synthesis. That isn't to say that insulin doesn't help...not by any means.

Combining a good amount of carbs with your protein is always a good idea when protein is plentiful, body fat isn't an issue and muscle gains are your goal.