A little problam with a\b split

A

Avi1985

New Member
I used to do a\b split, something like this :
A:
Squat
Bench Press
Lying T Bar Rows
Machine Deltoid Military Presses

B:
Lying Leg Curls
Incline Bench Press
Cable Front Pulldown
Machine Deltoid Military Presses

But there is a problam. When i do squats i work on the the quadriceps femoris and a little bit on the hamstrings. And when i do the Lying Leg Curls i work on the hamstrings. I do 3 weight training a week so i train my hamstrings and quadriceps femoris once in 5 days. Would it be better if i do squats and Lying Leg Curls Every training and then both hamstrings and quadriceps get train every 2 days?
 
The muscle building potential of lying leg curls is, well, not much! Why not add in deads as your first exercise for your B routine? If you can't do deads for some reason (which I will assume also precludes SLDLs) then do front squats and your leg curls.

When you back squat, try to do a deep squat so that you call your hamstrings into play more.
 
" The muscle building potential of lying leg curls is, well, not much! "

Why is that?

If you can't do deads for some reason (which I will assume also precludes SLDLs) then do front squats and your leg curls.


Is fronsquat better for hamstrings than leg curls?
 
I would suggest that you keep leg curls somewhere in your routine. While I was on 5x5 I developed a nagging pain in my knees. I thought sqauts might be the problem so I switched to leg press, but the knee pain continued. Then I reasoned that perhaps deads and floor rows weren't giving me enough hammy development to offsets squats & leg presses. I added leg curls into the mix at the beginning of a new cycle, and the pain was gone within the week.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't just drop leg curls because you don't think they'll give you mass. Sometimes, there are other concerns besides just hypertrophy, ya know?
 
Avi,

The lying leg curl works out all four of the muscles in the hamstrings. Stiff-legged deadlifts work out three of the muscles in the hamstrings. A study in the Journal of the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) concluded both hamstrings exercises produced the same EMG activity. The back squats produced the least hamstring EMG activity.

If you decide to do lying leg curls then keep your toes pointed out. Doing this prevents the calve muscles from helping the hamstrings. Many people do not know this. Maybe this is why they do not see good results with lying leg curls.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is fronsquat better for hamstrings than leg curls?</div>

Probably not.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Would it be better if i do squats and Lying Leg Curls Every training and then both hamstrings and quadriceps get train every 2 days?</div>

To answer your first question Avi, your hamstrings are being worked every workout day. When you do back squats you are working hamstrings less than when you do you leg curls. But they are still being worked. If you want to work your quadriceps every day I recommend doing leg extensions on your B day. Leg extensions only work the quadriceps and are easier on your body than squats. If you can do squats three days a week without hurting your gains then that is ok too.

Remember to keep your toes pointed out when you do lying leg curls. That's very important.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Electromyographic Activity of the Hamstrings During Performance of the Leg Curl, Stiff-Leg Deadlift, and Back Squat Movements
GLENN A. WRIGHT

Department of Health and Human Performance, Auburn University, Auburn, Alabama 36849
THOMAS H. DELONG and GALE GEHLSEN

The Human Performance Laboratory, School of Physical Education, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306.

ABSTRACT

To compare the effectiveness of 3 weight-training movements for the hamstrings, 11 weight-trained men performed 3 repetitions at 75% of 1 repetition maximum of the leg curl (LC), stiff-leg deadlift (SLDL), and back squat. Integrated electromyography (EMG) and peak EMG were analyzed in the biceps femoris and semitendinosus independantly during the concentric (CON) and eccentric (ECC) phase of each exercise. Results were as follows: CON-LC and CON-SLDL elicited the greatest integrated EMG activity, with no significant difference between exercises. The CON-squat showed approximately half as much integrated EMG activity as CON-LC and CON-SLDL. Highest peak EMG was found in the CON-LC and CON-SLDL, with no significant difference in these exercises. The CON-squat produced a peak EMG that was approximately 70% of LC and SLDL. We conclude that LC and SLDL involve the hamstrings to a similar degree; however, the back squat involves only about half as much hamstring integrated EMG activity as LC and SLDL.

doi: 10.1519/1533-4287(1999)013&lt;0168:EAOTHD&gt;2.0.CO;2
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 2, pp. 168–174.</div>
 
Fausto, i did the analyze of the exercises before i wrote this post. On deep squats the hamstrings work but not enough. And i want to avoid doing deadlift until someone who knows to do it perfectly will come and show me how. Its pretty hard to learn it from the internet.
I think ill go for QuantumPositron advise about theleg extensions.
Thnx.
 
Avi

Besides the Ex site there is a few vids the guys have posted here on how to deadlift properly..now don't be coy and go give it a go...you won't be sorry!
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<div>
(Fausto @ Dec. 03 2007,15:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Besides the Ex site there is a few vids the guys have posted here on how to deadlift properly..now don't be coy and go give it a go...you won't be sorry!
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</div>
I dunno, Fausto. I've found that deadlifts are nearly addicting...!
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Ever since I learned how to do them (from watching the videos posted here, and from reading Starting Strength), I have tried to integrate deadlifts into every workout routine.
 
OK, I probably should have been a bit more explicit in my first comment. What I should have said was that the muscle building potential of lying leg curls on their own is not much. Sure they'll work your hams but you really need to have a bigger compound movement in your B routine and this is especially true if you are doing just the one leg exercise each session.

Lying leg curls are fine if you are hitting the rest of your legs hard and have the time to add them in. However, in your case, with just the one leg exercise, lying leg curls should not be the exercise of choice, esp. if you want a more balanced leg development.

Seeing that you are already doing back squats, a brilliant leg combo for your alternate workout would be front squats followed by SLDLs.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">On deep squats the hamstrings work but not enough.</div>

Not enough for what? This sounds like you haven't actually performed a deep (full range of motion) back squat to me. At full hip flexion your hams and glutes will be working very hard.

I really think you will do very well squatting twice a week and deadlifting once a week. Do check out the threads on this site on deadlifting. There is much good advice on performance technique. If you can film yourself performing the exercise, that can really help in correcting errors. There is no reason to feel nervous about performing a deadlift unless you start out with a load that is too heavy to manage. Start out with a bar loaded with an Oly sized 10kg plate each side. That'll be 40kg (88lb) which shouldn't be too much to get familiar with the movement.

If you are performing an abbreviated routine (like the one you listed) then I just can't stress enough how helpful to your progress learning the deadlift will be. But then I am a deadlifting nut like TunnelRat and many others here.
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Avi,

I agree with the other guys on deadlifting. Like a few others, I taught myself from internet videos and articles on T-nation and elsewhere. Stiff-legged deadlifts are easy enough. Copy into your workout notebook a few key points on deadlifting from videos/articles and go over them before you do your first set. This will help you a lot. Deadlifts are nothing to be afraid of.

I prefer stiff-legged deadlifts over lying leg curls because:
1. It improves your hamstring flexibility. So its efficient for flexibility.
2. Its compound and in this case works the glutes, the erector spinae, and traps among others while getting the hamstrings at the same time.
3. The study I posted above shows its comparable to a lying leg curl for hamstrings. Given the other 2 points I made, why not do SLDL's instead of lying leg curls?

Again Avi, if/when you do your lying leg curls be sure to keep your toes pointed out. Otherwise the gastrocenemius in your calves will assist the hamstrings and the intensity on the hamstrings is reduced.
 
I didn't realise there was a 2nd Edition of SS available. Thanks for the heads up. I have ordered a copy direct from Aasgard.

Here's a useful web page for anyone that wants to check it out:
Starting Strength 2nd Ed
 
I think it came out in late august. I have both the first and the second edition. The second edition has about 60% more info that spans all the lifts of the first edition as well as the secondary exercises. It was definitely worth buying even though I have the first already.
 
FWIW: I have always alternated atg squats and dead lifts. Now, I do cleans and leg presses on Saturdays (in addition to the A/B routine). You can't say my legs aren't getting a workout each week!!!
 
<div>
(QuantumPositron @ Dec. 03 2007,18:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Again Avi, if/when you do your lying leg curls be sure to keep your toes pointed out.  Otherwise the gastrocenemius in your calves will assist the hamstrings and the intensity on the hamstrings is reduced.</div>
Now im curious. Why when my  toes pointed out my gastrocenemius dont assist the hamstrings?
 
Now i got to a conclusion that on lyng leg curls the proximal fibers of the hamstrings dont work because on lying leg curls i only flex the knees but dont extend the hip. So i decided to do the deadlift i did before the lying leg curls :
http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BBStraightLegDeadlift.html

Is it ok how he do it? becuase thats how i did it.
I think i had pain because my hamstrings, gastrocnemius and soleus are not flex enough. And thats why when i lowered the bar my back couldnt stay straight. So on the next 3 weeks i will work on flexibility, and afterwards start deadlift with low weight and each training add 2.5 - 5 kilos. What do you say?
 
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