After AAS, when should you SD?

[MrNasty]

Now I know most here at HST.com dont condon AAS or the discussion of it; it seems anyway. And I respect that, but I need help with this and I refuse to let this post go un-answered. So lets think...



When is the best tme to SD after an AAS cycle?

Anytime during PCT is completely out of the question IMO. I would think the only time for SD would be after PCT and when the body is completely recovered.

Then comes another question:
What does a person who recovers slowly (like myself) do in this case? SD might not come then for several months pst cycle.

What do you guys think?

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

I'm not sure personaly that deconditionning is a good idea for someone on steroids. If you are above your genetic potential you're likely to lose muscle if you don't train at all.

And if your level of hormones has not fully returned to normal.. ouch..

As a steroid user your primary objective between your cycles should be to maintain as much mass as possible.

Imho you'd be better off with a system like DC if you're on steroids than HST.

 

[MrNasty]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not sure personaly that deconditionning is a good idea for someone on steroids. If you are above your genetic potential you're likely to lose muscle if you don't train at all.

So if someone uses AAS you suggest them never to SD? Why? What if they only cycle ever so often (like myself)?

Also, I dont feel I'm anywhere near my genitic limits. I will tell you though that ever since I started HST and used the SD method I have lost more weight than I've gained. Do you suppose this is due specifically to SD?

Quote[/b] ]And if your level of hormones has not fully returned to normal.. ouch..

That's a given. I dont plan on SDing untill I feel I am completely recovered. Blood tests should provide sufficient evidence of this.

Quote[/b] ]Imho you'd be better off with a system like DC if you're on steroids than HST.

DC huh? I've looked at DC's training at it just looks like added volume - but still much like HST.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

First of all I don't take steroids. I'm just trying to raise some points that you might want to condider, basing myself on my comprehension of HST and steroids.

Quote[/b] ]
So if someone uses AAS you suggest them never to SD? Why? What if they only cycle ever so often (like myself)?

Also, I dont feel I'm anywhere near my genitic limits. I will tell you though that ever since I started HST and used the SD method I have lost more weight than I've gained. Do you suppose this is due specifically to SD?

How can you not be above your genetic potential if you take steroids? It seems to me that after your first cycle you should already have surpassed it.

Say you have been able to gain 20 or 30 lbs naturaly. If you gain another 20-30 lbs thanks to one cycle of steroids, you should be above your genetic potential most probably.

The problem if you're above your genetic potential is that, by definition, your body cannot support that amount of muscle. You're likely to be systematically in a catabolic state.


As for the fact that you have not been able to gain from HST, this is a bit worrying. Are you sure you are eating properly? Do you have the feeling that you lose during your SDs?

Quote[/b] ]
That's a given. I dont plan on SDing untill I feel I am completely recovered. Blood tests should provide sufficient evidence of this.

That's certainly a good idea to pass tests just to be sure.

Quote[/b] ]
DC huh? I've looked at DC's training at it just looks like added volume - but still much like HST

I suggested DC because it is good for strength and still has a relatively high frequency.

HST cannot work without deconditionning while DC can.


It might be a good idea for you to get some feedback from people who have reached a high level of muscularity regarding how their SDs work. Just a suggestion..

I say all this because I myself seem to lose a bit of muscle during my SDs, and so do some other people. So my opinion on that is that the SD should be done only when there is no other way to grow. For someone who takes steroids, deconditionning might just be a waste of time because on steroids, you grow anyways. And it may even make you lose some muscle.

Just my 2 cents.. like I said it might be a good idea to get some feedback from other people in your situation.

 

[MrNasty]

Let me answer your questions:

Are you sure you are eating properly? During my first cycle, yes. I was eating very well. I managed to increase LBM and drop BF; my body weight stayed the same (185lbs). That was a plus. The second cycle, yes, I gained 3lbs to 4lbs (putting me at 188lba/189lbs). Another plus...

My thris cycle, not so much. I was broke and not eating & suppliminting as I should have been. I didnt make any gains. I actually lost during this cycle & both SDs (after second cycle and thrid cycle SDs), which brought me to 180lbs after all was said and done.

Now I'm on my fourth HST cycle, 2 weeks in and 5lbs up but I'm assisted. So its hard to judge. Overall though (since starting HST) I've managed to go from 188lbs to 180lbs. I dont blaim the weight loss totally on HST, as mentioned, I was going through some tuff times and wasnt able to eat and supp as I had previously been doing.

I am eating like crazy this cycle, and diet (overall) is pretty good. Plenty of protien this round, along with EFAs and High Crab days. I'm looking forward to the weeks ahead. I've also switched my routine up.

Do you have the feeling that you lose during your SDs? Yes ... I usually lose a little every SD.

Quote[/b] ]How can you not be above your genetic potential if you take steroids? It seems to me that after your first cycle you should already have surpassed it.

Say you have been able to gain 20 or 30 lbs naturaly. If you gain another 20-30 lbs thanks to one cycle of steroids, you should be above your genetic potential most probably.

The problem if you're above your genetic potential is that, by definition, your body cannot support that amount of muscle. You're likely to be systematically in a catabolic state.

I dont think 5'9" 185lbs is my genetic limitation. Not by a long shot. I dont feel that most anyone has reached their genetic limitations. Some might think they do, but I'm one fo those people who believe the genetic limitations concept is highly over rated - just like the over training concepts you hear people preach these days. I think true genetic limitations, as well as over training, is actually harder to reach than many let on. Now, that's just me - maybe my understanding of these concepts is confused.

Quote[/b] ]I suggested DC because it is good for strength and still has a relatively high frequency. HST cannot work without deconditionning while DC can.

Now see, I didnt know that about DC - that SD was not necessary. I obviously didnt read into as much as I should have.

Do you have a link to DC?

As always HDD, you've been of much help. Lots to think about. I'm off to ponder.

Thank you...

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] ]
Are you sure you are eating properly? During my first cycle, yes. I was eating very well. I managed to increase LBM and drop BF; my body weight stayed the same (185lbs). That was a plus. The second cycle, yes, I gained 3lbs to 4lbs (putting me at 188lba/189lbs). Another plus...

My thris cycle, not so much. I was broke and not eating & suppliminting as I should have been. I didnt make any gains. I actually lost during this cycle & both SDs (after second cycle and thrid cycle SDs), which brought me to 180lbs after all was said and done.

It's clear that the problem was your diet.

Quote[/b] ]
Now I'm on my fourth HST cycle, 2 weeks in and 5lbs up but I'm assisted. So its hard to judge. Overall though (since starting HST) I've managed to go from 188lbs to 180lbs. I dont blaim the weight loss totally on HST, as mentioned, I was going through some tuff times and wasnt able to eat and supp as I had previously been doing.

I am eating like crazy this cycle, and diet (overall) is pretty good. Plenty of protien this round, along with EFAs and High Crab days. I'm looking forward to the weeks ahead. I've also switched my routine up.

Keep up the good work AND THE CALORIES!

Quote[/b] ]
Yes ... I usually lose a little every SD.
[/quote

Mmh.. no good. Try to eat enough calories and protein.

I wonder if some people - especially hardgainers - don't lose faster than others when they stop training or stop eating a lot. Maybe you fall in that category.

I dont think 5'9" 185lbs is my genetic limitation. Not by a long shot. I dont feel that most anyone has reached their genetic limitations. Some might think they do, but I'm one fo those people who believe the genetic limitations concept is highly over rated - just like the over training concepts you hear people preach these days. I think true genetic limitations, as well as over training, is actually harder to reach than many let on. Now, that's just me - maybe my understanding of these concepts is confused.

Your genetic potential for me is the maximum mass that your body can support. After a steroid cycle your test level is so low that you lose mass. So you see that the amount of muscle that you have depends on how much hormones you have.

People's genetic potential must be between 25 and 50lbs or something like that, depending on whether the person is a hardgainer or an easygainer.

Imo, if you do one cycle of steroids right, you should already be beyond your genetic potential, or at the very least, you should reach it.

Quote[/b] ]
Do you have a link to DC?

http://www.ironmag.com/article....ual.htm

I think there is a forum on DC. Don't know where however.

 

[MrNasty]

I read the link ... here's what I got form it.

DC Training:
Train to failure.
Use a Progressive load.
Use (so tot speak) I progressive volume (#reps).
Instead of SDing, we simply switch exercises.

Now, about the last one ... How does switching exercises replace SD? Does is evoke different muscle fibers of the same muscle (say chest) into the picture? If so, how does this keep RBE at bay?

Also, One would think that training to failure 3x a week full body would lead to over training. Is this not true? Or does DC structure style (routines) prevent this? I noticed his posted sample routines where a little different looking, but I didnt get into them completely.

Interesting concept though - train hard, lift heavy, eat good, sleep long, and grow ... But that's been said for years.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

In DC, you take 3 routines, and you alternate the routines one after another. This enables you to train each muscles more often. Normaly you'd train each muscle every 4 days. But you can decrease frequency if necessary.

For each muscle, you chose 1 exercise. For that exercise you do:
- 1 set of 6-8 reps to failure
- 15 sec rest
- 1 set to failure
- 15 sec rest
- 1 set to failure
- 15 sec rest
- extreme stretching 30-60 sec.

That's it. You should get stronger almost every time, so you overcome the RBE by increasing your strength. - in HST, you overcome the RBE by deconditionning. -

 

[ZMT]

Quote[/b] ]You should get stronger almost every time, so you overcome the RBE by increasing your strength.

for how long ? on AAS - OK for that long as you take it but naturally ?

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

for.. a certain time.. lol

 

[MrNasty]

Quote[/b] (Heavy Duty dude @ Mar. 16 2005,7:00)]In DC, you take 3 routines, and you alternate the routines one after another. This enables you to train each muscles more often. Normaly you'd train each muscle every 4 days. But you can decrease frequency if necessary.
For each muscle, you chose 1 exercise. For that exercise you do:
- 1 set of 6-8 reps to failure
- 15 sec rest
- 1 set to failure
- 15 sec rest
- 1 set to failure
- 15 sec rest
- extreme stretching 30-60 sec.
That's it. You should get stronger almost every time, so you overcome the RBE by increasing your strength. - in HST, you overcome the RBE by deconditionning. -

I see I see, thank you for the brief run down. When I get some more time I'll look into it. I'm not going to SD after this cycle, mainly due to the fact that I always lose LBM ever SD. I'm thinking of switching to DC after my AAs cycle instead. It might be a nice transision.

I'm not taking my loads "ON" past my natty RMs. This should help post cycle to keep some gains I hope. It might also make the switch a bit easier too. I dont know, we'll just have to find out.

 

[stan]

I think it's silly to frown on steroid use for any reason.. if I feel that I can't develop further without it, and have done the research on it, and am willing to accept any potential risks or side effects (that's 3 pretty responsible 'ifs' which have to be true.. plus if I can afford it, so that's 4 good 'ifs&#39 then I'll take them, so I look upon any ideas, or exchange of information on it as a good thing for future or ptential users of steroids.

Not trying to turn this into any kind of debate, but I'd like it if people wouldn't tiptoe around it as much as they do.. It is after all 100% true that you won't be as big as possible without them and open discussion about how to optimise its usage so you'd theoretically not have to use as much, and to show both positives and negatives.

I'd actually like to know more about it for curiosities sake, so MrNasty, supporting ur decision all the way dude and hope u get the answers you're searching for.

S.

 

[MrNasty]

I almost forgot - while "on" RBE shouldnt be an issue, correct? Can you explian why for me real quick?

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (MrNasty @ Mar. 16 2005,11:50)]

0-->

Quote[/b] (Heavy Duty dude @ Mar. 16 2005,7

0)]In DC, you take 3 routines, and you alternate the routines one after another. This enables you to train each muscles more often. Normaly you'd train each muscle every 4 days. But you can decrease frequency if necessary.
For each muscle, you chose 1 exercise. For that exercise you do:
- 1 set of 6-8 reps to failure
- 15 sec rest
- 1 set to failure
- 15 sec rest
- 1 set to failure
- 15 sec rest
- extreme stretching 30-60 sec.
That's it. You should get stronger almost every time, so you overcome the RBE by increasing your strength. - in HST, you overcome the RBE by deconditionning. -

I see I see, thank you for the brief run down. When I get some more time I'll look into it.  I'm not going to SD after this cycle, mainly due to the fact that I always lose LBM ever SD.  I'm thinking of switching to DC after my AAs cycle instead.  It might be a nice transision.
I'm not taking my loads "ON" past my natty RMs.  This should help post cycle to keep some gains I hope.  It might also make the switch a bit easier too.  I dont know, we'll just have to find out.

How long is your cycle going to be? How are you going to keep increasing the loads if your cycle lasts 3-4 months?

Apart from that, DC was just a suggestion. The idea is to use a system that does not have you decondition. You could use another one if you prefer..

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (MrNasty @ Mar. 16 2005,11:57)]I almost forgot - while "on" RBE shouldnt be an issue, correct?  Can you explian why for me real quick?

lol.. it's not so much of an issue because AAS are so powerful!

It's not the microtrauma that make you grow it's the very high level of hormones in your body.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

To get back to your original question, you should check the FAQ. There's a post on steroids and pro-hormones. If I remember well, it is recommended to take as long after your cycle as the length of the cycle before deconditionning.

 

[MrNasty]

Quote[/b] ]How long is your cycle going to be? How are you going to keep increasing the loads if your cycle lasts 3-4 months?

My cycle is 16wks long. I broke it up into 4wk blocks. With in those 4wk blocks I have 18 WOs (9 upper & 9 lower) per block. I'm also only doing 10's & 5's. So I have two 4wk blocks of 10's & two 4wk blocks of 5's. The progression in load is gradual, but there; I see an increase about ever 4 to 5 WOs. What I'm doing is keeping my original natty RMs for these rep ranges in place, but instead trying to increase the number of reps each workout; surpassing the 10rep and 5rep mark. If I had to compare it to something, I would compare it to DC's posted example in the link you sent me. Its not exact but the overall structure is the same. I increase reps until I cannot increase them any further, when this happens I then increase load (about ever 4 to 5 WOs, as mentioned). On top of all that, with each 4wk block I increase the number of set as well. So for this first 4wk block I've only been doing 1set, the next 4wk block 2sets, then 3sets, and finally 4sets for the last 4wk block of 5's. I'm also training to near, pretty much, failure ... usually within 1rep of failure with a spot.

I'm also using a slow TUT during my sessions as well, slower then I've probably ever trained before. I'm focusing more on the contraction rather then the movement of weight. I've been taking the last rep of each set, contracting, and holding for as longest possible (dont really count) before slowly releasing. I guess in this sense, when its possible, you could say I train to failure.

So you can see I'm trying to utilize both a progression in load as well as a progression in volume to stimulate the muscle. I know results using a progression in volume are diminishing, but so far its working well; even with only one set currently. I know they say soreness isn't a good gage to use when measuring progress, but if I'm stiff and sore the day following a WO I know I caused trauma needed to stimulate growth. I honestly cant wait to get into the multi set workouts.

I'm sure there is a completely easier and better way to go about this, that I've totally went off the deep end with my routine, but I'm going to stick with it and see how it works out. After all, life is full of trial and error -- how else do I expect to learn if I'm not experimenting?

Quote[/b] ]it's not so much of an issue because AAS are so powerful!
It's not the microtrauma that make you grow it's the very high level of hormones in your body.

Microtraauma must contribute to some degree.

Quote[/b] ]To get back to your original question, you should check the FAQ. There's a post on steroids and pro-hormones. If I remember well, it is recommended to take as long after your cycle as the length of the cycle before deconditionning.

I'm going to look at them right now. I'll let you know what I come up with. Thanks.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Sounds good!

Keep us updated on your progresses!

 

[JonesersRX7]

Here is an article from Mind and Muscle that's perfect for you...

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=23&pageID=291

Poke around over there... tons of good info. READ READ READ!

- Jonesie

 

[MrNasty]

Quote[/b] (JonesersRX7 @ Mar. 16 2005,6:57)]Here is an article from Mind and Muscle that's perfect for you...
http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=23&pageID=291
Poke around over there... tons of good info. READ READ READ!
- Jonesie

Nice link. That is basically what I'm trying to accomplish post cycle. Although I didnt think about it in the way he stated it, the general ideas he gave where something I had considered before jumping into this cycle. I like the way he put it - Cutting back to 3x a week training, 5's first, then 15's and 10's. Good read for a person in my situation.

Thanks for the link bro...