Bedtime meal, post workout meal

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From most of what I have read, it is good to eat a post workout meal (an hour or so after lifting and having a shake) that has a good amount of carbs. In contrast, pre-bedtime meals should be low in carbs. My issue is that since I workout at around 10:00 pm, my pos-workout meal is my pre-bedtime meal!

So which way should I go? I have been eating oatmeal, peanut butter, and skim milk. I've been getting favorable results, but I'm still a bit of a newbie. I think I would be getting good results regardless. So as things start to slow down for me, what do you think is the best meal in this situation?
 
Pre-bedtime meals don't have to be low in carbs. Some people will tell that it will turn to fat because you will be asleep. Some people would be wrong. Just eat whatever, but it would be a good idea to have plenty of protein before bedtime just because.

For instance, I like to have spaghetti late at night, and I drink milk with it. Sometimes I eat some cottage cheese along with it. I haven't had more fat gain compared to muscle gain than I would normally have, so it must not be doing any harm.
 
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 23 2006,19:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Pre-bedtime meals don't have to be low in carbs.  Some people will tell that it will turn to fat because you will be asleep.  Some people would be wrong.  Just eat whatever, but it would be a good idea to have plenty of protein before bedtime just because.

For instance, I like to have spaghetti late at night, and I drink milk with it.  Sometimes I eat some cottage cheese along with it.  I haven't had more fat gain compared to muscle gain than I would normally have, so it must not be doing any harm.</div>
I tend to believe in the nutrition partioning effects of eating certain foods at certain times in relation to your workout schedule. But overall, I agree that not doing so isn't overly harmful.

The point behind the carbs after exercise is the beneficial effect on insulin, right? I think protein and carbs is probably the way to go.
 
I don't think the postworkout thing makes a difference. I used to fuss about that stuff when I first started and I wasn't making very good gains then. Now, I am consistently making gains and I don't bother with tweaking how many carbs are in my postworkout shake and making sure I only get protein in my preworkout shake, etc etc. Funny thing is that now that I only focus on making sure I get a ton of protein and hit my calorie goals, I'm making better gains than I did back when I was all OCD about everything.

Sure, all these things may do small, minute things to your body, increasing partitioning by 1.000445% or spiking insulin for 10 minutes or maybe causing GH to spike for a couple hours. It doesn't amount to much and it won't give the effects that most people think. I think the only people who should worry about insulin are diabetics. Unless you are shooting insulin, you won't see much difference.
In the end, all this manipulation of timing, etc etc isn't going to make much of a difference.between you and the guy who is eating the same amount of calories but not worrying about timing of postworkout nutrition or not worrying about making sure he has the right ratio of carbs to protein in his shakes, etc etc.
You see where I'm going, I think.

To keep it simple, just get some protein in you after your workout, then make sure you eat a decent meal within an hour or so. Or drink a monster shake full of all kinds of stuff if you won't be getting a meal for a while.
 
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 23 2006,22:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Funny thing is that now that I only focus on making sure I get a ton of protein and hit my calorie goals, I'm making better gains than I did back when I was all OCD about everything.</div>
Am I correct in recalling that you were shooting for about 4,000 cals/day? Do you know how many above maintenance you are, or do you shoot for what causes weight gain of about 1lb/week like some?

Also, on the protein, are you talking about something like 1gm/lb?

Do you know roughly how much your calorie and protein intake exceeds what it was when you weren't gaining as much?

I'm working on a bulk now, getting 4000+ calories and 200+ gm protein, but just wondering what your experience may say about the &quot;sweet spot&quot; where you're taking in enough to really gain without adding more fat than necessary.
 
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(etothepii @ Aug. 23 2006,22:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The point behind the carbs after exercise is the beneficial effect on insulin, right? I think protein and carbs is probably the way to go.</div>
I thought this aswell, but recently i dled the faq and noticed these comments in the diet section:

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There is some interesting research on protein coming out that indicates that when you add carbs to your protein, more of it gets &quot;trapped&quot; (incorporated into gut proteins and/or oxidized in the gut and liver) in the gut. This is because of the anabolic effect of insulin on enterocytes. Insulin isn't really anabolic in skeletal muscle but it helps nonetheless.
Anyway, my point is this, Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle. Then take your carbs one hour later, which still allows you to take advantage of the metabolic &quot;window&quot; post workout.</div>also:
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Based on those studies looking at the effects of carbs/insulin on regional protein deposition it's possible that if I take 20 grams of protein without carbs, I might get a greater percentage of those 20 grams to make it through first pass metabolism by the splanchnic bed, and therefore be available for uptake in the muscle.
On top of this, research on Eukaryotic Initiation factors have made me further question the benefits of so many post workout carbs for well fed bodybuilders. It doesn't hurt to figure out what direct role, if any, carbohydrates play in post workout protein synthesis. For the sake of body composition, I like to maximize amino acid uptake into muscle (hence the Primer) without relying on so much sugar intake.</div>
So now im unsure about the role of carbs post workout
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(Lifting N Tx @ Aug. 24 2006,00:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Am I correct in recalling that you were shooting for about 4,000 cals/day? Do you know how many above maintenance you are, or do you shoot for what causes weight gain of about 1lb/week like some?

Also, on the protein, are you talking about something like 1gm/lb?

Do you know roughly how much your calorie and protein intake exceeds what it was when you weren't gaining as much?

I'm working on a bulk now, getting 4000+ calories and 200+ gm protein, but just wondering what your experience may say about the &quot;sweet spot&quot; where you're taking in enough to really gain without adding more fat than necessary.</div>
My maintenance is roughly 3400 calories. If I eat that everyday, then I stay around 200 lbs. I try to get 4000-4500 to bulk, and I don't really worry about protein too much as long as I get at least 200 grams. I end up hitting 250 grams or more most days anyway.

I seem to be able to eat a large excess without gaining much fat. I routinely use up to a 1000 calorie excess when bulking and fat comes on very slowly.
My maintenance when I was smaller was around 2500 and I bulked with an average of probably 3500 calories, though I remember going up to 4000 at times. I had some good gains along with some fat gain, but it took almost all year.
 
Totentanz, interesting that your maintenance went up about 900 calories. Are you more active, or do you ascribe it mostly to more calories required to maintain your greater lbm? Sounds like you are getting roughly a similar amount of excess calories, just getting better results now that you are larger---which goes counter to the norm of newbies getting faster results. Were you getting less protein then?
 
BTW, regarding pre/post workout questions, Dan Moore recently posted a study on his site that indicated that taking whey protein immediately pre workout versus 60 minutes post consumption didn't really make a difference. There was a difference for EAA plus carbs, which did better if taken before.

Taking the whey 3 hours post was about the same as taking it 1 hour post.

Posted here.
 
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(Lifting N Tx @ Aug. 24 2006,17:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, regarding pre/post workout questions, Dan Moore recently posted a study on his site that indicated that taking whey protein immediately pre workout versus 60 minutes post consumption didn't really make a difference. There was a difference for EAA plus carbs, which did better if taken before.

Taking the whey 3 hours post was about the same as taking it 1 hour post.</div>
and it makes perfect sense
whey needs some time to release AA into bloodstream
so immediately before is NOT the best time
try at least 30 min before if not using BCAA/EAA
 
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