Cutting diet guidance needed

[jsraaf]

I am planning to do a short (5-6 week) cycle next time & am looking to cut after having just finished a gaining cycle.

For anyone willing to take time to offer assistance, I could use some guidance on structuring my diet during this time.

Basically, I'm struggling with carb intake - I want to keep protein high and EFAs reasonable - and I'm just not clear on what to do carb-wise. Hopefully I'm correct on this approach & not misguided right out of the chute.

So here is some background/parameters, followed by questions for which I'm hoping for some specific recommendations:

- I am 6-0, 175lbs, age 41, sedentary during day (desk job), guess at BF% would be 15%-ish
- I would be looking to reduce 5-10lbs over 5-6 weeks
- I have been gaining on about 2500 cals daily, was thinking 1500-1800 for cutting
- I would rather not dink around with refeeds
- I would like to use diet as primary tool, as I don't like cardio much
- I am accustomed to eating 5-6 meals daily, but one (family dinner) is a wildcard so it might be most anything
- I am using Primer & Driver for pre- and post-workout protein, with whole food & some whey as a supplement to get 1g/lb bodyweight or more.

My questions, or areas of uncertainty, are:

- what would be the appropriate amount of carbs daily, and what type (grains/roots, fruits & veggies, etc., or other) & would timing of these types be important?
- should the bulk be pre- and post-workout, or spread evenly throughout the day?
- would the daily amount gradually decline thru my cycle, or remain constant (subject to adjustment based on results)?
- should creatine use be continued, or tapered off & eliminated?

Any specific ideas on how I should structure things would be greatly appreciated!

 

[mikeh]

Hi John,

I'll help ya.
Before we start I'll let you know I'm good at putting on fat and muscle then taking off muscle
and fat in that ORDER.

I'll also be cutting next cycle and here what I would suggest (also my plan)
I'm also around 15% BF with a 17-18 mm lower ab measurement

I think lowering to 1500-1800 cals is too much too soon.

Try to eat around 2100 cals 40% P, 30% C, 30 % F
(I'm not a Keto diet type guy) on days you workout
180 gms of Pro, 150 gms of Carbs, 70 gms of fat.
Carbs: I would eat some carbs for breakfast (oatmeal is a good choice)
Then some veggies around lunch and the rest pre and post WO.

On non lifting days (hate the term "off days" )
Try to eat around 1800 cals 40% P, 25% C, 35 % F
180 gms of Pro, 100 gms of Carbs, 70 gms of fat.

Make sure you sweat duing your WO
I'm planning on lifting HST with EDT style.

Basically starting with the lower body, reps will be superset
back-to-back then rest 1 minute and repeat for 15 mins.

Then 5 -10 minute rest (catch your breath)

Then upper body superset back-to-back rest 1 minute repeat
for 15 mins (or until I drop) not to failure.

I also hate "treadmeal cardio" can you maybe go for a bike ride,
jump rope, shoot some hoops, etc ?? also work abs on this day.

I plan on using creatine for recovery.

Also here is a good post by Haiyai

 

[jsraaf]

Thanks Mike!

Have you previously done something like what you describe, or trying for the first time?

As far as the pre- and post-workout carbs go, when gaining I used 1-2 tsp sugar with creatine in pre-, and usually would use FF yogurt, skim milk & banana (with protein) for post- drink. What would you suggest in a cutting situation for pre- and post- carbs?

 

[jsraaf]

I do have another question (for anyone still reading): suppose you are coming off a bulking cycle & plan to follow it with a cutter.

Since you aren't necessarily going for muscle growth, is it necessary to SD in between, OR could you skip it & go right into 15s for the next cycle with your adjusted diet?

In other words, do you still need the deconditioning that you need for growth, when trying to cut, which would not be present with SD omitted?

Hope that made sense..

 

[mikeh]

Quote[/b] ]Have you previously done something like what you describe, or trying for the first time?

Yes, I was not ripped but I can get to about 10% BF (I can see top 4abs and viens in my legs and arms) Also have tried CKD but my strength goes to hell and don't like that moody and fuzzy/dizzy feeling.

Quote[/b] ] As far as the pre- and post-workout carbs go, when gaining I used 1-2 tsp sugar
with creatine in pre-, usually would use FF yogurt, skim milk & banana (with protein) for
post- drink.

I would eat FF yogurt and an apple or orange 1 hour before WO.

Have your Pre WO shake: Primer / Whey drink with creatine 1-2 tsp sugar.

Post WO shake: I would just mix Driver with skim milk.
(I know about protein synthesis but I'm not try to add mass)

I think you WO at night so one P+F meal before bed and your done.

 

[mikeh]

Quote[/b] ]Since you aren't necessarily going for muscle growth, is it necessary to SD in between, OR could you skip it & go right into 15s for the next cycle with your adjusted diet?

My vote is yes. IF you stop after your WO today this would give you 12 days of SD before you start the first night of 15's.

Also after a bulking and lifting cycle aren't you a little bloated, sore and tired

 

[jsraaf]

Quote[/b] ]Also after a bulking and lifting cycle aren't you a little bloated, sore and tired

Well, yeah....

Thanks for the great suggestions Mike! I'll give this a try. I'll also try Bryan's suggestion (in the FAQ) about avoiding carbs until the next whole food meal 1-2 hours post-workout. And I just got some cottage cheese & natural PB for the bedtime snack.... yes, workout in the evening...

 

[Aaron_F]

I had a line of things i was going to say, but Ive forgotten half of them

Basically

Set calories

175 x 10-12 = 1750-2100kcals

Set protien

175x1 = 175g

Set fat at least 25-30% total calories

Decide how you want to eat, do you like carbs, do you feel like death on low carbs?

Or just split the remainding calories between a monounsaturated fat (olive for example) and low gi carbohydrates (with some high GI before and after training)

 

[micmic]

Quote[/b] ]- I am accustomed to eating 5-6 meals daily, but one (family dinner) is a wildcard so it might be most anything

If you find that you are excessively hungry most of the day, try to eat 2-3 bigger meals instead of 5-6 smaller, and move them earlier in the day. I have found it helps my satiety.

 

[jsraaf]

Quote[/b] ]Or just split the remainding calories between a monounsaturated fat (olive for example) and low gi carbohydrates (with some high GI before and after training)

Aaron, can you give me an idea or two on what would be considered low or high GI carbs? Are we talking sugar content?

 

[Ryan]

50/30/20 - Carbs/Protein/Fat
At least 75% non-processed foods
Set calories higher than normal fat loss level (if normally you use 12 use 14 x bodyweight) so as to slow the decline of metabolism.
More Food + Cardio are synergistic
Finally the variable in the equation is cardio. If you are not happy with fat loss then increase cardio.
It has dramatically worked for me over the last 5 weeks to the tune of 4mm off my abs and I had been cutting for months and reached an impasse until I splurged and picked up BFFM, well worth my money.

 

[jsraaf]

Ryan, thanks for the suggestion.

Quote[/b] ]More Food + Cardio are synergistic

Can you elaborate a little?

Also, the 50% carbs seems high for cutting, to me. I presume this is Venuto's suggested approach - if so, what is the basis?

 

[mikeh]

Quote[/b] ]jsraaf
And I just got some cottage cheese & natural PB for the bedtime snack

Just add some vanilla protein if it still taste like dog cr@p

Hi Ryan,

First congratulations on loosing 4 mm off your abs !
Can you give us your before BF % measurement and after BF% ?

Does Tom suggest 50% carbs when you increase your cardio (very catabolic) to
prevent loosing muscle and maintain weight? Then do you lower your carbs each week ?

If yes, then I understand, otherwise us carb sensitive guys will add fat eating 50% carbs.

Quote[/b] ]Finally the variable in the equation is cardio. If you are not happy with fat loss then increase cardio.

What about lifting HST using EDT method ? (very anti-catabolic)

 

[jsraaf]

Quote[/b] ]What about lifting HST using EDT method ? (very anti-catabolic)

Mike, is EDT-style what you described above (supersetting w/ short rests, etc.)?

 

[mikeh]

John,

Yes, it's by Charles Staley here's a free link

The EDT Fat Loss Solution

I used it last year to cut and I was happy with the results.

I will lift M, W, F
lower body for 15 mins
a-1 Squat
a-2 SLDL

a-3 Calf
a-4 Leg curl

rest 5 mins

Upper Body for 15 min
b-1 Chins (pulldowns)
b-2 Incline press

b-3 Shrugs
b-4 Delt side raise

(might sub 1 set bi curl / tri ext)

I'm VERY happy with HST, just looking to loose some of this ab fat

 

[jsraaf]

So are you lifting as the protocol is defined in the article, or more of an HST-style with your pre-defined weights/progression?

Have you tried doing a circuit routine a la HST, where you would do 1 set each of your leg exercises back-to-back-to-back-to-back, then rest 2 minutes, then repeat (or something like this?)

 

[mikeh]

Oooops sorry, yes, HST-style with your pre-defined weights/progression.
That article was just a move it and loose it link.

I have been lifting "supersets" during the 15's for 2 sets

Quad/Ham rest 1-2 min repeat
Chest/Back rest 1-2 min repeat
Shoulder/Trap rest 1-2 min repeat
Bi / tri rest 2 min repeat

( I rest a little more that last night of 15's)

So I figure I'll try this the entire cycle.
I might lift 3 sets of 5 or add drop sets to keep it at 15 mins

Quote[/b] ]
Have you tried doing a circuit routine a la HST, where you would do 1 set each of your leg
exercises back-to-back-to-back-to-back, then rest 2 minutes, then repeat (or something like
this?)

No I haven't but I think it should work. The only thing is maybe wiht upper body leave the arms until last.

I'm looking to loose some fat (15's /10's) while maintaining strength and muscle (10's/5's and won't do negatives this cycle)

IF I can lower my waist / ab measurement and keep my chest / arm measurement then I'll call it a success.

By the way sorry for turning your cutting diet post into a fat burning program.

 

[jsraaf]

Hey, no problem -thanks for all the help!

Since I'm doing a short (5-week) go-round, I am considering trying the standard EDT thing just for fun & see how it works. Only problem there is you're not doing whole body 3x/week. But I suppose you could do 10-min. zones instead of 15, and do 4 of them to get all your movements in. Or, do 3 movements per zone.

I dunno. After tomorrow's routine (finding my 5RM on a couple new lifts) I'm in SD, so got a couple weeks to kick it around.

 

[Ryan]

Quote[/b] (mikeh @ June 05 2003,11:18)]First congratulations on loosing 4 mm off your abs !
Can you give us your before BF % measurement and after BF% ?
Does Tom suggest 50% carbs when you increase your cardio (very catabolic) to
prevent loosing muscle and maintain weight? Then do you lower your carbs each week ?
If yes, then I understand, otherwise us carb sensitive guys will add fat eating 50% carbs.

Quote[/b] ]Finally the variable in the equation is cardio. If you are not happy with fat loss then increase cardio.

What about lifting HST using EDT method ? (very anti-catabolic)

The 50% is by no means across the board there are few others tricks, that I have seen in the past, from Lyle and others but none combined the way he does it. Let's just say that if you are carb sensitive you should be okay, because the way these tricks are incorporated. I, too, thought I could diet with high carbs because I've had my fat days. One of the crux of the program is clean food that shouldn't cause the insulin surge that processed grains do.

I hope you understand that I don't want to lay out the book out here that he profits from. I had full intention of sending the book back after I have gleaned a little useful information but it was such a paradigm shifter I can't help but keep it close. So much of what I have learned over the last 10 years comes from research, very little comes from practical application. Plus Venuto, like Bryan, is very caring with his customer base. He had a question, he emailed me back a further thorough answer.

EDT like HST is a muscular hypertrophy program that requires supplemental cardiovascular to get the peak benefit (To fat loss, I don't mean to the respective workout programs). IMO, if you are cruising through EDT too fast you will some of the gains on the table so to speak.

Bodyfat issue:
I am not the three-site caliper king so there could be errors, I say that because even now I cannot see defined abs (I can almost see defined uppers but lowers are faded and can see where the begin and end), I may just be hiding all my fat there from my childhood overeating days.

I was about 12-13% in early April with Ab caliper measure average of about 16mm. FWIW, to back that up (Aaron will love this ) Handheld Omnron (BIA) was 12.7%, June 2, measure Ab measure was 12-12mm and bodyfat was 8.5-9.2%, with Omron being 9.2%.

 

[Ryan]

Quote[/b] (jsraaf @ June 05 2003,8:53)]

Quote[/b] ]Or just split the remainding calories between a monounsaturated fat (olive for example) and low gi carbohydrates (with some high GI before and after training)

Aaron, can you give me an idea or two on what would be considered low or high GI carbs? Are we talking sugar content?

Here's a quote from Venuto on that topic from an interview he did with Tom Benson:
"That's the very first thing I would say, because the first thing that comes to people's minds when they want fat loss is to simply eat less and that's it, but what I'm saying is that you should eat more and at the same time do more cardio. Because when you decrease your calories, your metabolic rate is going to slow down. When you increase your calories, your metabolic rate is going to increase. When you do cardio, that is going to increase your metabolism. So I consider eating more and doing more cardio as a double boost in metabolism; whereas if you don't do very much cardio and all you do is decrease your calories, you're just getting that decrease in metabolism from taking in less food. Most people won't do that because in their mind, it seems that the two somehow cancel each other out, but they don't they enhance each other."