Don't want to start anything

Discussion in 'General Training' started by iceman0625, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. iceman0625

    iceman0625 New Member

    BUT, being that I am trying HST opposed to what everyone else says. I think I should seem some scientific evidence of some sort that shows that HST does work. I don't mean to come off as being an @$$ but I would really like to see some kind of writting that shows it works.

    I was in high hopes of this and was starting on my 2nd week of 10s and the more I told ppl about it the more discouraged I got by their negative attitudes towards HST. The wierd thing is, today was the first day I went back to working out the "old" way and I noticed that like HST, I only did 2 exercises per body part. I only did back, traps and shoulders. I might as well be doing HST, I just don't have the energy in the gym to stay in there for 2-3 hrs hitting every muscle from all angles. I eat very well in my diet but after abotu 45 mins of intense training I am ready to quit.
     
  2. precious_roy

    precious_roy New Member

    Hmmm, well I cant say that I know too many people with negative attitudes towards HST. Actually, there arent too many people at my gym that know anything about proper training, so thats not saying much. Do they seem to have reasoning against it?

    As far as studies of its actual working, you probably won't find any. I mean you can find studies that the principles that govern it work...But again, probably will not find scientific studies in actuality of any routine. Its not like some doctor is going to say "Hey, you look like a skinny guy. Mind if I try to train you DC style and have you eat 500g of protein a day and we'll log the results?" There is no reason for scientists really to do that. And I'd rather they didn't; I would rather that they work on curing AIDS or cancer or something. Not meaning to be rude, just stating a point.

    Specific comments: an HST workout isn't supposed to last more than 45 minutes. What are the exercises you are doing?
     
  3. baby a

    baby a New Member

    iceman0625,

    Sounds to me like you aren't sold on HST because you have no idea what it is. Maybe you should take a look around this site and figure out what you're doing, because if you are in the gym that long then you are doing something really wrong.
     
  4. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    If you want scientific evidence to back HST up, read the HST article. Bryan posts loads of study references that back up his conclusions regarding HST.
     
  5. Joe G

    Joe G New Member

    What are you doing in the gym for 2-3 hours? I train HST with two training partners and we finish in 70 minutes everytime and this is our program. (2 sets each)

    Squat
    Leg Extension
    Calf Raise
    Incline Bench Press
    Pullover
    Shoulder Press
    Shrugs
    Preacher Curl
    Lying Tricep Extension
    Abs


    There is no reason you should be in the gym for 3 hours. And why are you being discouraged by what other people think? Read the articles on this site and make an objective decision for yourself!


    Joe G
     
  6. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    Every forum about training methods has its success stories and also some who don't gain. Is it the method or the application of the method or the person that is the problem when there are few gains?

    Here is what I recommend. Instead of doing whole body routines pick a bodypart such as arms and then train only that for a month. You can try HST or any other method. Keep records and see what happens to your arms. This is the best way you can experiment on yourself and find out what makes your arms grow.

    There are so many different ways to train. Which is best? Yes, we would love to see studies that tested the methods and found out which one was superior. There are a few things that seem to be common in almost all bodybuilders who developed large size. They lift heavy resistances, there has been a progression in the resistances, they have been training for a long time and the volume of training is large.

    After experimenting for some 46 years and owning a gym for 34 years I have concluded that the secret is to do many sets with a maximum resistance. It is crucial that one do the right exercise that works. If you are not growing rapidly then you might need to try different exercises.

    I was wondering about more frequent training. However, as one gets larger the stresses put on connective tissue increases geometrically. It is just a guess but if you train really heavy for those 5 or more maximum sets then my hunch is to train a muscle every 4th day. That frequency gave me the best gains in strength when I was training for the pinch grip. I ended up one-hand pinching 92.5 kg which is a world record as far as the most anyone has done in that movement.

    You guys here seem to be looking for a strict formula but that is unlikely to generate rapid hypertrophy. Sorry, fellas, but just about every top guy does heaps of sets. Luke Wood posted on Getbig that he does 24 sets for his shoulders and that 12 reps gave him the most size. Interesting. I would have thought lower reps was the answer. The size of Luke's shoulders has to be seen to be appreciated. You can find that post at Getbig under the thread "Hello, guys" by Luke.
     
  7. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry, fella, but just about every top guy does heaps of testosterone.


    Now I'm not one to condemn steroid usage. I'll probably use steroids at some point in the future, once I can't gain naturally anymore... but you can't use training methods for naturals that were developed and used by steroid users. Naturals just can not handle the volume that a steroid user can.
     
  8. chiefhog

    chiefhog New Member

    Line of the Day.
     
  9. Chthonian

    Chthonian New Member

    Line of the Day²
     
  10. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Hey Vince :)

    It's not really the lower reps, I'll explain after I get another quote:

    As for this one, it's not really a strict formula we're after. It's not even a formula at all. HST workouts, no matter how they are setup, are simply workouts that properly apply hypertrophy-specific principles (which were gotten through much scientific research, and only the mere basics are found here due to the depth and quantity of such research).

    Perhaps you are not sold on HST simply because you don't really get it (or perhaps I have misread your post, which I hope I haven't). It's not the lower reps that are beneficial because "lower reps are magic" or a reason like that. And related to that, we aren't after a formula. No formula here. Just practical and proper applications of the principles, which is why you'll find a lot of variations in the workouts among HST adepts.

    The lower reps are simply a mechanism in order to accomodate more frequent training. If you are able to train more frequently with super heavy weights despite keeping reps high (and still stay well away from CNS fatigue), then please do so, because that would mean lower reps would give you far less benefit. Unfortunately, not too many people can do more than a few reps with weights that are very close to their 1RM, especially those not using steriods.

    So someone who understands HST principles would know that after realizing he can do at least 5 more sets for his 5RM (perhaps because he is a unique individual, bodybuilding vet, or pumped full of steriods), he should not deliberatley keep the volume low since he can afford to do higher reps and still train frequently (and the lower reps were simply a mechanism to be able to train frequently, so it is now effectively a very much unneeded mechanism).

    Hope this clears up a few things. Good luck! :)
    -JV
     
  11. baby a

    baby a New Member

    I am very certain that Vince understands that HST is not a routine, as he is aware of the reasons for using varying rep schemes. He is a knowledgable guy, he just has his own philosophies about things, which there is nothing wrong with. He doesn't need any explanations.
     
  12. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Thanks Baby A  :)

    And no offense meant to Vince. I wasn't questioning the validity of any of his philosophies. However, his post was sure to attract notice (and replies) from HST followers, simply because it seemed to downplay the importance of, or misrepresent to a degree, certain HST principles. Plus forgetting the steriods factor, that definitely escaped nobody's radar.

    Of course, one immediately realizes the breadth and depth of his knowledge and experience as a bodybuilder, nearly half a century in total. I've only been studying physiology and bodybuilding for less than half a decade, and have been lifting weights for only a little more than that, so I am by no means even close to him. But that's ok, because it was not my point to challenge any of his philosophies; I do not consider myself in any degree to be an expert, in whatever field, to have the right to be proselyting and converting people from their own solid philosophies. I just wanted it cleared 100% that his post would not be the cause of any confusion for anybody (which of course would naturally mean newbies).

    So no offense taken, I hope.  :)  I just wanted to be sure that scenarios like "Newbie: Hey, this guy made a great point, why insist on lower reps, lower reps definitely won't get me anywhere!" (which isn't a rare event) won't happen because of that post. People immediately noticed and pointed out the steriods, and I just wanted to be sure no one (newbies in particular because they really are the only ones who would probably need the pointing out) also misses the importance or place of the HST principle that seemed to have been misrepresented to a degree.

    Regards to all  :)
    -JV
     
  13. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    I don't want this to be an attack on HST or the science behind hypertrophy. I am doing my own studies using myself as a guinea pig plus a few guys at my gym are experimenting with various ideas.

    However, if someone were to pay me for information about getting them big, naturally, as quick as possible I wouldn't advocate HST as formulated. No way, no how. That is not the way. If some of you make satisfactory gains then you will become believers.

    There is so much crap in bodybuilding that I don't know where to start. The assumptions are many and some are false. The idea that you need steroids to get big is false. Now, how is this question going to be settled? Most trainees do not change their ideas. Most bodybuilders have entrenched ideas and usually do not change those ideas. I prefer to find the truth. It will have a correlation with getting rapid hypertrophy. That correlation will be high.

    You don't need to train all bodyparts each week to grow rapidly. Almost everyone I know is doing way too many exercises. Try training just one bodypart and make it grow. Then apply that information to other bodyparts.

    Very few humans, including Bryan Haycock, have approached their capacity regarding hypertrophy. I mean natural bodybuilding in all my posts. Send Bryan over to Sydney and I will prove what I say. You aren't going to find my information in any scientific journal.
     
  14. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    Vince, everyone on HST is trying to do as much volume as possible without losing strength, so what's your point?

    We try to do exactly what you say..
     
  15. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    everyone, just ignore Vince. Trust me, don't bait him into an argument because he'll never stop.
     
  16. -[[[----]]]-

    -[[[----]]]- New Member

    Vince, Volatile & Sonney in a room discussing Bodybuilding - can you imagine the crap they'd come out with...
     
  17. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Hey Guys

    You guys are not used to good ol' Vince. He has been doing this for years, by now I thought he would have tried one or two cycle of good old fashioned HST and come up with the research to back it up! Come on Vince [​IMG]

    How is DOMS doing by the way? It is a good feeling, I must admit [​IMG]

    Hey, don't take it serious, I am just pulling your leg, you are entitled to believe in wehatever you want [​IMG]
     
  18. Interesting statement coming from someone who has not actually tried HST. Vince, your comments regarding HST have zero credibility.
     
  19. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    I don't put too much importance in belief in bodybuilding. If I did I would conclude that the whole sport is crazy. I am interested in the truth about hypertrophy and how to obtain it in significant ways and rapidly. Whether certain people object to what I say is irrelevant for hypertrophy theory. What is important is if someone can refute what I have stated. So far nobody has done that. Dismissing someone is not refuting him.

    There was an analogy about a person living in a cave wondering what the world was really like. All he could see were shadows because there was not much light. Most bodybuilding forums are unenlightening. I present my ideas in the hope of helping some overcome sticking points. If you are growing rapidly using HST then you have no need to consider other programs. Those of us who have advanced far beyond what HST, as presented, can generate in us know we don't have to try something to assess its worth. Those who insist you do have to try other methods would be wise to consider what I have written because I do not joke about this subject and I have some important information to relate. What I say here will eventually be seen to be true.

    What really bothers me is that so many dispute things instead of trying, collectively, to find the truth. I am amazed at my progress lately.
     
  20. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    [​IMG] You crack me up Fausto! [​IMG]

    Yeah, I review past threads every time, and I actually did see so many threads he started or joined (and with what was said as his other username, "Allman"), and hey, if Bryan himself, Dan, Blade and Vicious can't settle him, I guess we'd really be better off following what BoSox said and just not entertain him, because even the most veteran HST experts just went round and round trying to explain stuff to him, and to no avail.

    Well, guys, see you around the board (just not on this thread I guess).

    Hey Fausto, go start a new thread!! [​IMG] kidding

    Regards to all
    -JV
     

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