Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by jack32, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. jack32

    jack32 New Member

    hi guys,
    charles staley's EDT program sounds intriguing.
    has anyone taken the time to test run EDT?
    what are the pros and cons of EDT vs. HST's more frequent bodypart hits?
    any and all feedback would be most appreciated!
  2. Jazzer

    Jazzer New Member

    Hmm... dunno.
    They don't give much away on that page do they & I'm not spending $80 to find out. All I know is that HST is free and it works, nuff said.
    Jazzer :)
  3. savagebeast

    savagebeast New Member

    I don't know what site you're referring to, but T-Nation has a free article on EDT by Charles Staley - Escalating Density Training.

    (from the article)
    That's not true, at least not in the sense that he means it. Muscle grows in response to progressive tension overload. At this point, I could go on and explain why I don't think EDT is a very good program for building muscle...

    But I won't. Instead, I'll just quote Bryan:


  4. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert


    We at HST enjoy answering questions about technicalities of the traing and so on...but when it comes to other programs as savagebeast says, why pay 80$ to find out about something else when this is free and it works for sure? [​IMG]

    So as a suggestion, I am going to propose that you get some info about HST, by redirecting you here so that you can get some insight onto the workings of this program.

    Specifically on the question you asked, here's a link How is HST different from other programs? for you to check as well.

    Furthermore, this HST FAQ should have all you need.

    Happy reading [​IMG]
  5. jack32

    jack32 New Member

    hi fausto,
    thank you for the info, however, i've actually been using HST for some time and really do enjoy it!
    and yes, i agree, you can't beat the price, LOL!
    i've actually read staley's articles on t-nation and purchased his just released book.
    as so many of us like to experiment w/ different protocols, and they are certainly a dime a dozen, i was simply curious to see if anyone had used EDT, prior to switching to HST, and what their experiences- pros and cons- were.

  6. navigator

    navigator New Member

    I notice that Bryan suggested that "peak tension" and the "duration of that tension" have something to do with hypertropphy.  But the product of those two variables is, in essense, the "mechanical work" performed.  Defined this way, mechanical work does have something to do with hypertrophy.  On the other hand, when work is defined as "perceived effort" or "level of fatigue," that's the kind of work that doesn't have to do with hypertrophy.
    As far as I can tell by reading Staley's free articles, he's suggesting that mechanical work has to do with hypertrophy.  But he's also approaching things from a strength-perspective, not a hypertrophy-specific perspective.
    After completing my last HST cycle, I jumped right into a simple EDT cycle.  It's been just about 4 weeks, now, and I have gained a similar amount of muscle that I usually gain during the 5s.  The biggest difference that I've noticed is that I get huge pumps during the workouts and I have way more energy during my non-training days.  I've also noticed that my joints don't ache so much training this way, and my strength has gone up, too.  Soon I will switch to a 3x3 type protocol to shoot for some PRs.  Is this more effective for muscle growth?  As yet, I don't know.  But there are other worthy objectives besides big muscles ... like stregth.
    Jack, I hope this little bit of info helps you out.
  7. savagebeast

    savagebeast New Member

    I had a nice reply all typed out, but Firefox crashed and I lost it. Oh well, here's the gist of it.

    Of course volume is a factor in hypertrophy--you need sufficient volume, aka sufficient TUT. However, Staley says:


    In other words, you're just creating a little more fatigue each time you train. This would be beneficial for increasing fitness. However, when it comes to gaining size or strength (which really aren't all that different for a natural trainee), fatigue takes a back seat to progressive tension overload. Have you ever heard of a powerlifting routine which says to take your 10-12 RM and try to increase the amount of reps you can do with it in 20 minutes each time you train? I haven't.

    The only mention of load progression I saw in the article was:

    Staley's got this backwards--in a strength or size program, increasing the load should be the first priority and increasing volume should be secondary. Which is why I'd say that EDT isn't ideal for increasing either size or strength.
  8. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    We know how muscle grows (if you still don't, you should start reading more). Anything that goes against it, or applies only a fraciton of it, or gets it half-wrong, is simply relatively ineffective (or at worst case totally ineffective), no matter how it is named (even if it says "Muscle Growth Miracle Training"), unless they pump you full of steriods along the way.
  9. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Judging from what I've read, Staley is all for keeping fatigue minimized, while at the same time improving our mechanical work capacity.

    The mechanical work concept is already implicit in the HST principles--that is to say, the convention is that the weights go up while we perform "as much volume as we can handle" without becoming overtrained. I think we all agree that loads must be progressive. But how can we disregard TUT? To the best of my recollection, Bryan has never said that TUT does not matter. Moreover, peak load coupled with the TUT with that load is definable as "mechanical work." In that sense, mechanical work comes with the HST principles.

    When Staley says that work performed must improve, I interpret that to mean the same thing as saying that one's 5RMs must go up from HST cycle to HST cycle. The only difference I can see is that with HST, we discuss peak loads and we all understand that we're talking about similar levels of TUT, whereas Staley is emphasizing the TUT component more particularly (but he, too, agrees that peak loads must be generally increasing over time).

    Whenever someone mentions a RM weight in HST, they're really discussing mechnical work. The "RM" tells us relatively how much TUT can be performed with that particular weight.

    When comparing routines, I don't think it's a black/white issue. There are always a gray area.

    Oh, yeah, Jvroig, I've read quite a bit and I still do. That's why I'm trying reconcile various training ideas with the HST principles.
  10. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    But that's exactly what I meant, so I see you must have misunderstood my post. Training "routines" themselves are really unimportant. What's important is they follow the science of muscle growth. If they do, then they work no matter what they are called, even if they are named "Anti-HSTroutine". If they don't follow the science of muscle growth that is only too common knowledge these days (or should be, anyway) then they don't work, even if they are called "HST 2.0" or "Turbo HST" or whatever gimmick.
  11. Joe G

    Joe G New Member

    Good points JV....

    And now I know who to call when I need a name for my new workout program that I invented! [​IMG]

    Joe G
  12. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Hmmm ... I thought we were talking about whether Staley's statement that progressive work leads to muscle growth is within the known "science of muscle growth."

    Maybe I did misunderstand your posts--I'll be certain to read them again  [​IMG].  But just in case you misunderstood mine, I offer you the following article about work and muscle growth, "Work, Its Impact on Hypertrophy." :D
  13. General Zod

    General Zod New Member

    I've recently decided that my routine needed to be overhauled. In doing my homework, I came across a number of programs that looked interesting. Among those were Max OT, Westside, EDT and HST (I've decided on HST and plan to start tomorrow). Before reaching my decision, a personal trainer I know leant me his copy of the EDT DVD. Let me first say, the DVD is a waste of money. Actually, at $20 it would be a waste of money, at $80 it's a flat out rip-off. There's absolutely zero information on the DVD that isn't readily available in articles published on various web sites.

    As for EDT as a program, I think it's a bit impractical. If you work out in a crowded gym, the possibility of being able to hog two different peices of equipment for 15 minute cycles just isn't very practical. Or even if you can get the two peices of equpment you want, it's likely they're located no where near each other in the gym, which would reduce the effectiveness of EDT. These are the biggest reason I chose not to use EDT. If I had a home gym, and had all the equipment necessary to complete the program, I'd probably have given it a go.

    Not sure how helpful that is.

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