Mr. Haycock: trying to understand HST principles

[street_fighter]

Mr. Haycock
I've been trying to understand the HST principles, rather than treat HST as simply another program to follow. I've referenced some of the articles you've listed, but am left with some questions:
If the purpose of eccentrics is to allow for increases in load, then wouldn't 1-2 concentric-eccentric reps (hypothetically) accomplish this?
But if the purpose of eccentrics is because they produce more growth than concentrics, then wouldn't it be more effective to do only do negatives, no matter what the load?
Your response would be very helpful. Thank you.

 

[vicious]

I'm not The Bryan but I'll give this a shot . . .

Quote[/b] ]If the purpose of eccentrics is to allow for increases in load, then wouldn't 1-2 concentric-eccentric reps (hypothetically) accomplish this?

The eccentric is there to increase load. But, I don't follow what you mean by 1-2 concentric-eccentric reps. Do you mean 1/2 rep cadence, or 1-2 load accentuated reps?

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

I think he means, if eccentrics are just there to increase weights, then why can't you just move towards your 4rm,3rm,2rm,1rm to increase weights?

I've wondered this myself before too. It would be nice when someone asks your max if i could give a qualified answer. I don't ever max out because i'm just trying to grow. But i'd love to know my Bench max for ego's sake. =)

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Eccentrics cause more damage to the fiber. Towards the end of the program after you've conditioned the tissue to the 5RM there isn't a lot of room to go progressivly, unless you use heavy Negatives. The difference between the 5RM and 1 RM is miniscule compared to the progressive nature between the 15's and 5's, so to just continuing with your 4RM, 3RM, 2Rm and so on wouldn't be as much benefit. The Neg phase is based on using your 110 to 120% of RM so to use them all the time would be taxing on connective tissue and dangerous. Remember one of Bryan's main concerns is PROLONGED, INJURY FREE GROWTH. You simply can't work heavy all the time and expect to remain injury free. To quote The Bryan

Quote[/b] ]In order to adhere to the principles of training induced muscle hypertrophy we must have progressive load. Progressive load sufficient to cause hypertrophy will limit the number of times the muscle can successfully contract against the resistance. There are several old studies that narrowed it down to a range of perhaps 20 reps (if the muscle is deconditioned) all the way up to 120% of your 1RM. So, depending on how conditioned the muscle is, you can use any rep range between 20 reps and negatives.

Lance, add 7 to 12% to your 5rm and this should get you close to your 1RM. IE bench press, we all know Lance is a monster and I am sure he benches 250Lb so your 1RM should fall somewhere in line of 268 to 280Lb. This is a broad generalization and in no way will it be 100% accurate and no way reflects the views or opinions of management

 

[BIZ]

I too am not The Bryan, nor The Jules, but let me give this a stab too.

Negs are done with more than 1RM weight most times considering you can lower more than you can lift. The negs are to be done deliberately slow(6-8 x 0), whereas a normal rep with 100% of max will most likely be done with a 2x2 cadene at best. So, the time and the load will be greater with an accentuated negative than with a 1RM. Also, on a side note, when doing negatives, it is not a bad idea to do a few normal reps with your 5RM just to maintain concentric strength.

 

[leegee38]

I've always done rather slow (6-10 second) negatives, too ... but haven't there been some studies shown here that quicker negatives are actually more beneficial? I've been doing them more like 2-4 seconds since reading this forum. And heavier, of course!

 

[vicious]

As dkm pointed out, eccentrics lets you use progressive load and perform enough reps of that load in order to create significant net MAPKp38 effect. If I could do 5 normal reps safely at 1RM, I would. But it's easier to manage just by switching to negative modality, and then get your metabolic work somewhere else. In fact, there's a whole section in the Customizing Thread about that . . .

Where I can, I do about 4-5 weeks of negatives moving toward 110-120% of 1RM and change load every 5-7 days. I love it, I can vary my technique in order to emphasize stretch, but usually at the end, I start to feel it in the tendons and joints. More often or not, that'll tell you to stop.

cheers,
Jules

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]but haven't there been some studies shown here that quicker negatives are actually more beneficial?

Those studies (or at least the studies I've seen) are suspect because they're isokinetic. Essentially, isokinetic dynamometers, which match 100% load to the speed, have necessarily higher load resistance through slower concentric contractions and faster eccentric contractions.

Quote[/b] ]I've been doing them more like 2-4 seconds since reading this forum.

I let force dictate the cadence. You want to extend the total TUL of an eccentric to a reasonable amount.

I should note that, from my experience, that if I start negatives at the same load as my last 5, I can feel palpably more strain from the negatives. By removing the concentric portion and creating a respite between reps, you remove a lot of the metabolic work and fatigue. The theory goes that these two variables work as a partial defensive mechanism against mechanical strain from additional reps. And so by removing the concentric portion, you decrease the loading decline of each rep.

cheers,
Jules

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (BIZ @ Feb. 04 2005,3:33)]I too am not The Bryan, nor The Jules,

Yeah, you're
Da BIZ
Kinda like Da Fonze, how much Cooler can one man get

 

[Old and Grey]

An excellent question SF. I will give you my rationale which Bryan may or may not totally agree with:

Using full concentric/eccentric sets of 1 or 2 reps would not provide enough Time Under Load unless you performed multiple sets which, because of the concentric portion, would be pushing the limits on CNS fatigue. Therefore, we typically use our 2 rep max for 5 eccentric reps which is generally that part of the lift most associated hypertrophy. However, it is also appropriate to use the 2 rep max to do 2 complete reps followed by 3 to 5 eccentric reps. That is how I typically approach it as I am as interested in neural strength as in looking big. If bodybuilding only is your principal goal, I would recommend sticking to eccentrics only. But then you end up being the "biteless watch dog."

 

[BIZ]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Feb. 04 2005,7:21)]

Quote[/b] (BIZ @ Feb. 04 2005,3:33)]I too am not The Bryan, nor The Jules,

Yeah, you're
Da BIZ
Kinda like Da Fonze, how much Cooler can one man get

Dan the Man...Daniel San....The Daninator...The Dan Meister...okay, okay, I quit. I like Jules little nickname he gave you as his signature, it's fitting.

 

[Old and Grey]

Ya mean Dan da Pimp?

 

[Lance]

That's a bummer that increasing weights towards your 1RM wouldn't be as beneficial as sticking with the negatives. I'd really like to know what my rep maxes are! Lol.

Maybe sometime i'll try a strength routine in between HST cycles like Old and Grey does. I love lifting heavy. The 15's kill me, i was not built for them, lol. I just finished my second 15RM day today, and can't wait for the minor zig zagging coming up to recover, let alone just doing 10's is not so exhausting. Max-OT was one of my favorite lifting programs just due to heavy lifting, but HST has the results i want. =)

I'd hate to add another week to my cycle, but maybe i'll add one and test my 1 Rep maxes just for fun ... or hell that would only take one day, right?

 

[street_fighter]

Thanks for all the replies, it makes better sense to me now.

I now see why negatives are a better choice than concentrics if you're trying to increase to the limits of absolute load.

But if negatives are so much better than normal reps in the case of increasing load >100% max, then why not use negatives all the time (like Old and Grey said), and just leave out the concentrics? I've heard the reason to include concentrics is for metabolic stress, but:

1.)is the metabolic stress (erk1/2) additive to the adaptation to mechanical stress (p38), or does it cause a shift in the characteristics of muscle fibers (like from fast to slow-twitch)? Research says that fiber-type can change, based on the type of metabolic stress imposed.

2.)Are there any other hypertrophy-related reasons to doing concentrics?


Thanks again.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]1.)is the metabolic stress (erk1/2) additive to the adaptation to mechanical stress (p38), or does it cause a shift in the characteristics of muscle fibers (like from fast to slow-twitch)? Research says that fiber-type can change, based on the type of metabolic stress imposed.

Erk 1/2 seems to cause more change between different subtypes of fiber twitch. I'm not sure whether it actually decreases the real force production of a fiber (from Type IIb to Type IIa), or it just facilitates mitochondrial growth and other stuff related to nutrient transport. Thus the qualification of said fiber changes between the different subtypes.

Quote[/b] ]2.)Are there any other hypertrophy-related reasons to doing concentrics?

Most are related to activation of localized (and systemic) energy systems which increases nutrient transport. Improves glycogen uptake and storage, which helps with fatigue, protects against activity-based protein breakdown, provides energy for growth, and makes you feel full.

In other words, it enables your muscle to use the resources of your diet as efficiently as possible for hypertrophy.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Actarus]

I have another story with negatives :
First I must admit I never did negatives for more than 4-5 consecutive weeks, BUT :

- They are very safe, I didn't even bother with warm up and could do reps with over 80kg attached on dips and chins but I cannot go for a 1RM on dips without pain (and submaximum performance) if I don't warm up.

- I gained negative strength quickly but no transfer to positive strength. When I restarted to train in positive style I VERY quickly lost nearly ALL my negative strength.

- I couldn't do a negative ONE arm chin at the begining, at the end I could do 1 rep with 15kg attached. When I stoped negatives for 2-3 weeks and wanted to TEST my ONE ARM NEGATIVE 1RM, it's was very hard WITHOUT any additional weight it would have take me at least 1 week to rebuild my strength. HST guys don't have this problem because they train in negative style with a relatively light weight Normal 2RM.

- SIZE ? Nothing ! Ok I did it only for 5 weeks, I started with around 50kg on chins and dips and finished with over 80kg, at the time my NORMAL 1RM was around 50kg. So if the super high tension is really the key for hypertrophy why didn't I grow ?

- Frequency ? I trained several times per week I don't remember how many times but at the end I eventualy did multiples (2-3) negative 1RM day after days with around 80-85kg.

My personal conclusion is that you would get better gains with low volume and reps with your classical 1RM or a weight very close to it. I just started to train like that, a few singles at 1RM (2-3 reps).

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]So if the super high tension is really the key for hypertrophy why didn't I grow ?

My hunch is that you didn't do additional metabolic work. How many negatives reps did you do? Did you only do negative reps (i.e. no extra metabolic work)?

cheers,
Jules

 

[Actarus]

I did only negatives, I did as many repetitions as I could at the begining it was around 10-15 then it droped to 2-3 when I used close to my negative 1RM.

Would some metabolic work AFTER the negative helps the growth

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]Would some metabolic work AFTER the negative helps the growth

Yes, it's crucial. Otherwise, even with all that damage, you'll get an incredibly flat look (and inadequate transport of nutrients.) It would have also increased the strength transfer from negatives into positive.

In the Customizing HST thread, I strongly suggest that people add on at least cardio in order to bring up the minimal metabolic work up. But, really, I'd like them to do at least a 15s set after their negative, just so they can stimulate the muscle metabolism.

Then again, maybe negatives just don't work for you.

cheers,
Jules

 

[shakeel]

vicious
when i just perform negatives with no normal reps i get the flat look and no growth.do you think i must add a 15 rep set after the neg?