multiple sets important?

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scientific muscle

New Member
I recently started my new cycle...I was going to try a 5x5 cycle since it seems to be highly recommended for strength training. Also I was going to do an A/B split. The problem I have is that doing a full-body workout I find it hard to do multiple sets and still have anything left in the tank at the end of the workout.

I was thinking to try one working set per exercise and just combine all my A+B exercises into one workout. I know there is alot of theory about one effective set being all that is needed. Bryan Haycock recommends starting with one set and adding if you need it. There are a couple of hulking guys here on HST forum who have been lifting for years and have gotten really big and strong doing only one set per exercise consistently (old & grey, stevejones) Recently I read a study which used trained individuals and had one group do 1 set and the next group do 3 sets, and both groups had the same gains!

Anyway I started my 5x5 routine and felt it was too much work, especially during the heavier lifts like dead-lifts, squats, chin-ups, etc. Today I did an experiment and tried doing all my lifts in one session doing one warm-up set and one working set of 8 reps. The workout lasted under 40 minutes doing 8 exercises and I felt plenty of stress to my muscles. I may just stick with this set-up for awhile.

If old & grey and stevejones can get such great results naturally with one working set per exercise, then why not me?
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Question.

When studies show 1 set I am guessing they mean 1 work set.

For example 6 time olympian Dorian Yates advocated only 1 work set per muscle group.

However what he did not clarify and what readers assumed including myself was that 1 work set to him was after 3 to 4 warm up sets.

Now a warm up set to me is extremly light but I have seen were some of the guys who advocated 1 set seem to be using 70 to 80 percent of there max for warmup?

Just something to think about?

But bottom line is that if 5x5 felt like too much then it prob was
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Better to do less and enjoy your training than kill yourself and not enjoy working out.
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Excellent point about the warm up sets, Joe. There are different versions of 5x5, with either all sets ramped to one top "work set" or ramped sets on some days, level on others. Like HST 5x5 training really is a philosophy of training based on principles, and different routines can be 5x5 just as there are lots of variations of HST routines. The "intermediate" Madcow version of the 5x5 that I am currently using has all ramped sets.

For an example, for a 200lb top set on the Monday workout, sets look like this: 5x100, 5x125, 5x150, 5x175, 5x200. I think that I need more rest between sets than average, but I often rest only 1 or 1-1/2 minutes between the first couple, then go to 3 minutes for the top set or two as they're the ones that are taxing. Doing 5 level sets is a lot harder, and tends to be recommended for more advanced guys who need more work.

Sometimes you need to learn how to fine tune a routine and make adjustments. Too many guys just go from routine to routine, instead of learning to make adjustments to keep the gains coming. I don't think that's a very productive approach.

An example of an adjustment--I've seen guys who think a level 5x5 top set is a bit more work than they need at the time do more like 5x100, 5x150, 5x180, 5x190, 5x200. Not the steep ramp of the "intermediate Madcow" version but not level.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was thinking to try one working set per exercise and just combine all my A+B exercises into one workout.</div>
Sounds like a good thing to try. Why not do it for a cycle? I really think that 5 x 5 with your top loads would be too much for any natural guy if frequency is at around 3 x weekly.

I have been experimenting with 25 reps per exercise per w/o this cycle. Managed it to the end of 10s but it seemed a lot harder than 20 reps. I am only doing this as my exercise selection is low each session - only 6 exercises. I've been pretty sore this whole cycle so far.

Next week I'm on 5s so I'm expecting it to get too much with 3 x week frequency but I'll just have to try it to really know. I'm prepared to drop to 15/20 reps for the second week just so I don't fry myself but I'll add in the extra reps with a reduced load if I still feel I have the energy for it.

I mainly decided to keep to a reduced exercise selection to speed up my time in the gym - fewer weight changes and moving around the gym etc. Now that I am used to alternating between two routines I really like the simplicity.

I'm pretty sure that as you get stronger as a natural lifter you have to reduce the number of top sets once you are pretty close to your RMs just to keep fatigue at bay. It just makes sense that a really heavy weight is going to take an awful lot out of you esp. if you are doing it frequently enough.

It has always made sense to me to do the absolute minimum necessary to grow. However, I'd rather err on the 'slightly too much' side just to be sure I get the job done successfully. I'll be very interested to know how you get on if you do decide to go this route for a cycle.
 
I will try this for awhile, but if it doesn't work, I will just go back to max-stim. I am trying to get away from max-stim because the workouts take longer and it can get tedious, racking and unracking all the time!
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But to be honest I had great mass and strength gains on it, and should probably not mess with a good thing!
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One thing you might have overlooked, Sci ...  A lot of guys (like O&amp;G and Dorian ... how about using those two in the same breath?
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) may only do one work set but often do more than one exercise per body part.
 
^^^^^
Bingo! Important point that needed to be mentioned. 1x5 squats, 1x5 front squats, 1x5 lunges, 1x5 leg extensions, 1x5 deadlifts could hit the quads just as much as 5x5 squats.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 19 2006,17:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If old &amp; grey and stevejones can get such great results naturally with one working set per exercise, then why not me?
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hey scientific---

I can't give you any articles that state 1 set is superior or even just as good as 3 sets, nor can I provide much scientific evidence for much else pertaining to bodybuilding.  I'm not in this to become a scientist.  I scan for what is working for others, do it, and then listen to my body.  So, all my evidence is strictly anecdotal, and it shows me that one set works great.  However, I want to add that outperforming my last cycle by 2 percent is critical, and at the top of my mind when I go to the gym.  So, those two things combined are what has worked for me when it comes to HST.   To give you an idea of the volume, here's a typical HST workout for me:
Squat
Leg Curls
Dumbbell Flies (2 sets though)
Pullups (2 sets unless i'm going to failure, then 1 set)
Deadlifts (or bent over rows)
Shrugs
Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Tri Pushdowns (or close grip bench, whatever)
Rotator Cuff work (light weight)

*All one set except where annotated
 
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(Lol @ Nov. 19 2006,18:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I really think that 5 x 5 with your top loads would be too much for any natural guy if frequency is at around 3 x weekly.
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I think that's true if done for any length of time. You could do it for maybe one workout a week. Usually the 5x5 weight when done for flat sets is not as heavy as a max set of 5. The other two would need to be at less weight or volume or both, maybe ramped instead of all at the top weight. I probably should have noted above that that's how the &quot;Madcow advanced&quot; 5x5 is setup and how most more advanced guys seem to do it. Some level 5x5, some ramped, especially if doing 3x/week.

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(Lol @ Nov. 19 2006,18:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
I'm pretty sure that as you get stronger as a natural lifter you have to reduce the number of top sets once you are pretty close to your RMs just to keep fatigue at bay. It just makes sense that a really heavy weight is going to take an awful lot out of you esp. if you are doing it frequently enough.</div>
I sometimes read the workout journal of a very strong guy who does mostly 5x5 type of training. Two days/week upper body pushing movements, two/week pulling and legs. Maybe 3-5 exercises per workout. Mostly 5 reps except for assistence movements, sometimes ramped sometimes 5 top sets. He'll work that way for a few weeks, then have a deload week with lower volume, though perhaps still heavy weights.
 
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(stevejones @ Nov. 20 2006,00:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
I scan for what is working for others, do it, and then listen to my body.
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That's the kind of thing I meant when I said that people need to learn to make adjustments, not just look for someone elses routine when gains slow. You learn from others, but learn to adjust it to be appropriate for yourself.

Interesting stuff, Steve. Looking at your exercise selection I'd say you're getting about 2 sets in per body part. Still pretty low in volume. I'd think that you should be able to get through a workout reasonably quickly.

If I recall, you were doing something other than a 15/10/5 rep scheme, weren't you? Still just 1-2 sets per exercise regardless of where in the rep scheme?
 
Im somewhere in the middle. I think most trainees could afford to do more than one set, especially if they are experienced. I also see the argument of guys that are squatting or deadlifting a lot every other day, that to do so with high volume would be extremely taxing. I think the 20 reps that Dan has chosen for Max Stim is an excellent place to start, and that this works well with 72 hour frequency for me. If I was working out every other day, I would cut the volume down to 15. I think guys that workout every other day doing 30 reps in the 5's are crazy!
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I only do one work set with the following A/B split:

A:

Deads
Bench
Chins
Dips

B:

Squats
Incline Bench
rows
dips

I do the following warmups:

5 minutes on treadmill with progressing incline throughout my cycle but speed constant.

15 deep knee bends

15 pushup

That warmup is across the board. My # of warm up sets varies depending on whether I am on my 15's, 10's or 5s.

During my 15's I don't use any warmup sets.

During my 10's I use one warm up set of 5 reps

During my 5's I use 3 warmup sets of 5, 3 and 2 reps. My final warmup set here is fairly heavy. For example, I might be at my 5 rep max on the bench at 285 and my final warmup set is a set of 2 reps at 260-265. Something like that anyway.

This works for me and I am a speed demon in the gym.
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Does take me a little longer during my 5's but not much longer.

Keystone
 
Imagine that! Dorian, Steve and me mentioned in the same thread. That made my year!
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Dorian actually does many &quot;warm up&quot; sets. As did Arthur Jones, Mentzer and most of the HITers. My only warm up consists of one sets of sub maximal body weight push ups, chin ups and squats. Then it is right into my workout. What I do a bit different is that I usually do 3 exercises per major body part (legs, chest and back) in giant set fashion (zero rest) and just one set of one exercise for smaller body parts(arm, delts and traps). I just completed the second week of 15's using:

Incline DB bench press
Dips
Flat DB flyes

Military press
Shrugs
French press or close grip bench press

Wide grip pull ups
Close grip chin ups
Seated rows
Barbell curls

Deep squats
Trap bar deadlifts
Leg extensions

I found that this workout with no rest within the groupings above, and using close to 15 rep maxes, that I could not work out more than twice per week. The DOMS was just too much. I think when I start the 10's (later today) and most certainly with the 5's, I should be able to increase the frequency to 3 and perhaps even 4 times per week. I am just going to have to play it by feel. I had originally only planned to one week of 15's but the results were so good and the soreness unabating so I decided to go to two weeks. I could probably even go to three weeks of 15's but, quite frankly, I am getting bored with so many reps so it is on to the 10's.

A lot of people pooh pooh doing multiple exercises versus multiple sets of the same exercise. However, I still have this old fashioned idea that hitting the muscle from various angles is superior to repeating the same movement. Studies have shown that there is a fairly steep decline in the benefit of multiple sets. However, I have not seen any comparative studies using various exercises of one set each. I am sure that there is a decline in efficacy but I can't help but intuitively feel that it is less of a decline with multiple exercises. All I can tell you is I have never gotten the growth with 15's that I have the past two weeks.

Unfortunately, there is a finite number of effective multi-joint exercises to chose from so I will not get a lot of variety in exercises from cycle-to-cycle. However, I plan on a two week SD after the 5's to reset my growth potential so perhaps that won't be a problem.

BTW, I would not recommend giant sets for beginners. They are very intense and similar to drop sets in building up lactic acid, at least with the higher reps.
 
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(Lifting N Tx @ Nov. 20 2006,01:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I recall, you were doing something other than a 15/10/5 rep scheme, weren't you? Still just 1-2 sets per exercise regardless of where in the rep scheme?</div>
Sometimes I do a 12,10,8,5....last time I did a 15,10,8,5. I don't do negatives and so far I have always taken a 1 week SD after 8 weeks of lifting. I do warm up sets on every exercise except triceps, but they are a small weight % of my workset and done just to avoid injury
example: shoulder press
135x7
185x5
225x1
295x5=workset
 
Steve is a perfect example of how to get big.

Bascially I don't care what kind of routine you are own...if you are eating enough, and you are going into the gym every workout besting your last workout....then you are going to grow !

Strength training on paper might not look like it leads to most muscle but I truely believe That if you are strong as hell like Steve and you eat...then you will be big!

Impressive man!
 
Not to hyjack this thread but Steve I would like to know something.

I am sure you have several buddies who power lift and I am betting at least one of them has torn a muscle (like myself)

I am wondering how there strength recovers (does it ever return to 100% ? ) and also how there muscle shape looks after the tear and scar tissue.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 20 2006,15:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Steve is a perfect example of how to get big.

Bascially I don't care what kind of routine you are own...if you are eating enough, and you are going into the gym every workout besting your last workout....then you are going to grow !

Strength training on paper might not look like it leads to most muscle but I truely believe That if you are strong as hell like Steve and you eat...then you will be big!</div>
Very true.

My goal is to use as little gym time as possible to be as big as possible, within my natural limitations. I used to do the 2+ hour workouts, 6 days per week but didn't grow. Oh yea, I looked in great shape but not like I was a weight lifter. I looked more like a well built baseball player. It wasn't till I cut down to 30 to 45 minutes an average of 3 times per week with an SD every 6 weeks or so that I really started to grow again. Part of the reason was that I could not force myself, or have the opportunity, to eat enough to grow under those workout conditions plus a pretty active lifestyle. Besides, &quot;less is more&quot; just did not make sense to me when I was younger. How could that possibly be? It only took me 45 years to figure out it is in your diet. Once you match your diet with your exercise, good things happen. Just ask Big Steve Jones!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> It only took me 45 years to figure out it is in your diet. Once you match your diet with your exercise, good things happen.</div>
Yeah, getting bigger and stronger is a long term process.  I think so many guys would be much better off if they would just stop rushing things.  Too many guys eat like mice and train like gorillas.  

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not to hyjack this thread but Steve I would like to know something.

I am sure you have several buddies who power lift and I am betting at least one of them has torn a muscle (like myself)

I am wondering how there strength recovers (does it ever return to 100% ? ) and also how there muscle shape looks after the tear and scar tissue.</div>


It all depends on how bad the injury is.  I live in a small town away from the city so I don't meet too many serious competitive p'lifters in person unless I'm in a competition.  However, I've corresponded via the internet with plenty and some have had injuries so bad that they never completely recover, others have gone through surgery and recovered 100 percent and beyond.  There are plenty on this board who knows so much more than me about injury recovery, but I have noticed that the guys who nurse their wounds and allocate a specific amount of time to heal make much more progress than guys who just take it easy or train with lighter weights until they think they are healed and then injure themselves all over again.  Do everything you can to not reinjure yourself.  That's all the advice I'm qualified to give.  I'd visit some of the forums like elitefitness or musclemayhem where a lot of p'lifters hang out who have probably had injuries similar to your's.
 
WOW! 18 solid replies from some of our best forum members.
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This thread turned out to be very informative. Basically as long as you are training enough to stimulate your muscles the number of sets is not as important. Obviously one set works...look at the results! But wether or not it is &quot;ideal&quot; is up to question.

I thought you guys would like to know that I decided to just stick with what was getting me results...MAX-STIMULATION!Doing one set of 8 reps didn't do much for me because today I felt no soreness and didn't even feel as if I worked out yesterday. I went back into the gym today and did a full on max-stim workout.

Squats-120k(264lb.s) x20
Dead-lifts-110k(242lb.s) x10 (still learning form in this exercise.)
Chin-ups-Bodyweight x20
BB Rows-70k(154lb.s) x10(doing only 10 reps for deads and rows...lowerback)
Incline Press- 60k(132lb.s) x20 (this is at 55 degrees, hit delts and upper pecs)
Wide-grip Dips- Bodyweight+15lb.s x20
DB upright rows- 30lb.s dumbells x20

I am sticking with max-stim training, that way I don't need to worry about sets at all! Just reps and m-time!
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Also it helps me lift heavy and still get plenty of reps in.
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