Need some input

Joe.Muscle

Active Member
Ok guys I need your opinion.

I have managed to lean down from 189 to 174.

Right now Im at 174 and I have got bf% to 8 %...but I look just too damn small. Not to mention a lot of the tight shirts are getting loose.

One problem I have had lately is just not eating enough do to work...life...and the heat...its too hot to have a big appetitite.

Well I have decided to try and put some good weight back on. I know how many calories I need... I know the whole protein equation....Im thinking as long as I get in 4000 calories a day and protein is adequate...and as long as its not from Little Debbie snack cakes then this will be ok for a bulk. Correct?

Basically what I am getting at is if I am at 3,000 calories and I need to get the extra 1,000 end I am better to get them from were ever...than not get them at all correct?

thanks guys!
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 08 2006,22:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok guys I need your opinion.

I have managed to lean down from 189 to 174.

Right now Im at 174 and I have got bf% to 8 %...but I look just too damn small. Not to mention a lot of the tight shirts are getting loose.

One problem I have had lately is just not eating enough do to work...life...and the heat...its too hot to have a big appetitite.

Well I have decided to try and put some good weight back on. I know how many calories I need... I know the whole protein equation....Im thinking as long as I get in 4000 calories a day and protein is adequate...and as long as its not from Little Debbie snack cakes then this will be ok for a bulk. Correct?

Basically what I am getting at is if I am at 3,000 calories and I need to get the extra 1,000 end I am better to get them from were ever...than not get them at all correct?

thanks guys!
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You haven't really listed your goals.   Are you a bodybuilder (non competitive), or just a guy who wants to stay in shape ?  IMO-- If you're a bodybuilder, 174 is pretty small (for a bodybuilder only), even at 8%, unless you are 5'6&quot; or under.  IF you want to be a bodybuilder, eating at least 4k calories per day during a bulk is an absolute must, even if you have to get it from little debbie snackcakes (terrible source of calories, but hey...if you're locked in a truck full of debbie cakes, then.....)
 
If you're looking to gain strength and size and need calories, then start buying natural peanut butter, it's real calorie dense (210 per tablespoon). I blend a serving or 2 in with a couple of bananas and orange juice. It's about 740 calories. Great to have one before and after lifting.
 
Peanut butter, flaxseed, and all the other calorie &quot;hacks&quot; that are floating around. Personally some of the mixture guys come up with sound really sickly but hey, if you wanna reach them goals....
 
Regardless of what several people will say on this forum, good nutrition will always provide better growth than empty calories. Not to say that people don't cheat when in the workout window with the simple sugars, but I've not any competitive BB'ers who win with it. Better to be safe and fuel the machine.
There ARE some studies done on this; I'm just not an expert that keeps them in a folder. I could find some tho, I've seen them. (ABCbodybuilding.com is one place)
 
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(quadancer @ Aug. 09 2006,12:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Regardless of what several people will say on this forum, good nutrition will always provide better growth than empty calories.</div>
That's true but then it's all going to come down to how you define an 'empty calorie' surely? IMO that's alcohol
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 09 2006,03:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Basically what I am getting at is if I am at 3,000 calories and I need to get the extra 1,000 end I am better to get them from were ever...than not get them at all correct?</div>
IMO I agree with you. As long as you're getting 1g of protein per lb, efas and preferably about 25% of your calories from fat (mostly unsaturated).

I don't think complex carbs v simple carbs are too much of an issue as long as you don't eat large meals of just simple carbs (i.e. simple carbs and complex carbs are fine together, for example dessert after a meal) with the exception of pre/post workout.

And eat an absolute pile of food after your workouts, stir friend chicken cooked in olive oil with pasta, lots of veggies and mixed with baked beans is a winner for me at the moment - about 130g of carbs, 50 g of protein, some unsaturated fats from the oilive oil and plenty of vitamins from the veggies :-D

Blending yoghurt, whole milk, bananas etc into shakes after your workout with your whey and maltodextrin/dextrose works well too.

Cheers

Rob
 
I think you're right on the simple vs complex carbs issue, although I like to err on the safe side and stay away from simple as much as I can except for workouts and that occasional piece of pie with tv. (ya gotta live sometime!)

One thing I'm wondering about myself though is that since I drink such a dense shake (made with the same stuff you use), in this Georgia heat it's all I can do to eat anything within two hours after a workout...or more! I just have NO appetite for hours, but I try my best to ingest a tv dinner or rice and chicken or oatmeal with p-butter or something calorie/nutrient dense but not a large meal.
 
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(quadancer @ Aug. 09 2006,13:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One thing I'm wondering about myself though is that since I drink such a dense shake (made with the same stuff you use), in this Georgia heat it's all I can do to eat anything within two hours after a workout...or more! I just have NO appetite for hours,</div>
Have another shake
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Doesnt protein suppress hunger anyway? I can never eat anything after a shake. Tried once an barfed. Never again. Gotta leave at least an hour and a half.
 
Great Points guys...thanks for the input.

To Steve Jones...my goals...well I just want to put on some mass...so yeah...getting bigger is were I am trying to go...but not fatter...

Im 6 feet 175 to 177 right now at 7.5 to 8 % bf

Chest is 43 inches
Arms are 16 inches
Waist is 32 inches.

So not a bodybuilder...I guess more of a athletic look...is what I am currently sporting.

You know damn if you do damned if you dont.

If you get real cut up Like I am not...I look small in t-shirts.

But when i walk around at 200...everyone is like your huge...but I dont want to take the shirt of at the beach..b/c of the belly....

But Im about to just throw caution to the wind and go for a good ol bulk!
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 09 2006,14:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But when i walk around at 200...everyone is like your huge...but I dont want to take the shirt of at the beach..b/c of the belly....

But Im about to just throw caution to the wind and go for a good ol bulk!
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Hey Joe, I'm in a similar situation to you - i always start worrying about the fat when I'm bulking and worry I'm losing too much muscle when I'm cutting.

I think that's the same for a lot of people and can really limit gains so from now on I am either losing weight or gaining weight. Going on a serious bulk so we can reassure each other we're not really fat along the way!

Similar size to you actually 6 feet tall, about 200lbs at the moment but had leaned down from 206 to about 189lbs recently but was still nowhere near 8% so probably a similar amount of lean body mass.

Cheers

Rob
 
Good point Rob.

I think you are right.

Its like we need to comment to just one goal at a time.

The thing is I am not always sold on the idea of a big bulking cycle. I have weighed as much as 222 pounds at one time...doing a huge bulk of meat, carbs and everythingn in site with 2 cell tech drinks a day...I got big and fat too..hehe.

When It was all said and done and when I cut back down...I was bigger but not enough to validate the huge amounts of weight gain.

I think I am going to bulk to 15% bodyfat...no more than that b/c of health concerns.
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Did you think it didn't work out ideally because you gained too much fat when bulking, lost too much muscle when cutting or a combination of both?

I think you can only build muscle at a certain rate so I'm looking to bulk over a long period (9 months or so) and gain about 1lb per weel. Then either cut slowly to try and maintain mass or possibly try something drastic like only protein and efas for a week with the idea that there will be a lot of fat loss but not enough time to much muscle (if that makes sense!).

In anycase I'm wondering if your bulk was quite fast so that a lot of it was fat?

A lot of the recommendations I'm reading involve bulking to about 15% then cutting to about 10% and basically adding mass keeping between those figures (sounds like what you're doing).

Need to get me some calipers!

Cheers

Rob
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 09 2006,09:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But when i walk around at 200...everyone is like your  huge...but I dont want to take the shirt of at the beach..b/c of the belly....</div>
LOL

Yeah, I certainly know what you mean.  I'd go on a very long slow &quot;bulk&quot; if I were you, and then go on a very long slow &quot;cut&quot;.  That's the way I did things, although I really over did it on the bulk (got close to 300 lbs, it was pretty awful).   Make your bulk as clean as possible, it will make cutting that much easier.  Bodybuilding is really hard for us naturals, diet is so important.  My cut was hell on earth, because I had allowed myself to get so fat during my bulk.  It took me 4 months to cut and I rushed it.  I should have taken about 6 months, as fat as I was.  

If you do your bulk right, you'll still be able to wear muscle shirts and have everyone stare at you.  Start NOW, so by next summer you'll be able to go shirtless and look amazing.
 
Steve, how much extra weight were you carrying? I'm cutting at the moment and I hate it. I hope I don't have to go that long. I think I've got around a stone and a half to lose to be where I want be.
J
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(Jazzer @ Aug. 09 2006,17:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Steve, how much extra weight were you carrying? I'm cutting at the moment and I hate it. I hope I don't have to go that long. I think I've got around a stone and a half to lose to be where I want be.
J  
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I didn't have stones to lose, I had boulders. I think a stone is around 15 pounds, and i lost about 65 lbs, which is about 4.5 stones I guess. My waist was in excess of 44&quot; when i started, and I was a tad over 32&quot; when I finished. I never thought my waist could get that little. These days, I panic if I get close to 38 inches, I'm about 36.5 right now and cutting.
 
Wow, nice one mate, the longest journeys start with a footstep I suppose. Its just willpower after that eh?
J
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Steve Jones...thanks for your input. Before I say anything else I want to tell you your avatar photo looks great man so keep up the good work.

I guess this bring us back to the debate over a calorie is a calorie...and we have gone over this time and time again...and I still get confused as hell
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You give great advice and you also say eat clean as possible so the bulk does not get out of hand...I used to agree with you on this...and now a days..I dont know what I believe.

I know in order to bulk clean or not clean diet there must be a surplus of calories...now is 3,000 calories a day of burgers the same as chicken breast and brown rice???

This is were I would love to see science step up and explain...I know a lot of guys here believe a calorie is just that...but Dr. Berardi over at T-nation says other wise.

I would love for some of the guru's to explain this.
 
If you really want to know why Berardi is a retard, go look at Lyle's site. Use the search. It's been discussed a lot. If you guys really want to believe stuff you read t-nation then go ahead, but realize that they are just out there to make money. They will tell you whatever they need to tell you to achieve that goal.

There is no way you are going to gain more fat on a dirty diet versus a clean diet when you have the same calorie excess. It just doesn't happen. The only thing clean eating does is makes it harder for you to consume as many calories because clean foods tend to make you feel fuller. I've done both and that's why I'm now opposed to people who say &quot;you must eat clean bro or you'll only get fat, k bro.&quot; But if eating clean makes you feel better about yourself then keep doing it - how you feel is a pretty important factor in this hobby we all have.
 
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