post cycle therapy allready during?

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ok the title is kind of confusing - heres the question:

1. shall I use an anti-estrogen just post cycle (ph) or allready during? And if you recommend me the second, will I use the same anti-estrogen during and post cycle?

2. Do you recommend an Oral (6-oxo) or an transdermal (E-form from dermabolics) Anti-Estrogen?

sombedoy recommended me to take the e-form during cycle and the 6-oxo post...but it dont get the picture...?:confused:
 
Dear Wolge,

You should take the anti-estrogen during the cycle.

I would recommend Arimidex (anastrozole)...... but 6-OXO sounds very promising. I haven't tried it myself really, but the talk of the town tends to put 6-OXO in good light.

Not sure why you were recommended both but one anti-estrogen would suffice unless stacking anti-estrogens is coming of vogue now....

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
therefore just taking during and not after?? hmmm ok thats something i havent heard before...argh...so now Ive heard everything

take it during
take it after
both

whats correct now?
 
Most everything I have seen recommended, and what I have done personally, is to use an anti-e post-cycle.
 
Aromatization occurs quite soon really.

Depending on the duration of your cycle, I'd start taking the anti-estrogens by the 3rd week or so.

This depends on how much and how frequently you are taking the PHs too. Some PHs claim to be un-aromatizable too...

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
Anti-aromatase (arimidex, femara, exemestane, 6-oxo) are preferrable during the cycle as an anti-estrogen, while a receptor blocker - or SERM (Nolvadex, Clomid) is preferrable for post-cycle recovery. Anti-aromatase is potentially counterproductive post-cycle for a bunch of reasons.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 05 2004)]Anti-aromatase (arimidex, femara, exemestane, 6-oxo) are preferrable during the cycle as an anti-estrogen, while a receptor blocker - or SERM (Nolvadex, Clomid) is preferrable for post-cycle recovery. Anti-aromatase is potentially counterproductive post-cycle for a bunch of reasons.
Click to expand...

Interesting... I've never heard this. Or more precisely, I've never seen the implications of the distinction between anti-aromatase and SERMs.

Clearly I'm no expert, but my understanding is the need for an anti-E while on cycle depends on what androgen you are using. 1-test and 1-AD supposedly don't aromatize, so you might not need anything until post cycle.

A little estrogen isn't necessarily bad on cycle, either.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 05 2004,5:08)]Anti-aromatase (arimidex, femara, exemestane, 6-oxo) are preferrable during the cycle as an anti-estrogen, while a receptor blocker - or SERM (Nolvadex, Clomid) is preferrable for post-cycle recovery. Anti-aromatase is potentially counterproductive post-cycle for a bunch of reasons.
Click to expand...
Blade, care to elaborate a little on the last statement? This is somewhat different that what I have learned & would like to know more.
 
argh...I see...the opinions are really different here...Id never say that one of yous wrong but the fact that there are really different statements shows that more information is necessary...so if one of you is able to tell me where I can find information about it (blade?) I will be really gratefull...
 
If you're taking 1-AD with 4-AD then yea, I would consider taking a small dose of an anti-aromatase. If you're taking 1-AD alone, then I wouldnt worry about it until post cycle. There is a low conversion rate even with 1-AD, but not enough to require a blocker. Everyone is different though, so keep your eyes open to any symptoms.

I think this is my first post so I would just like to introduce myself. My name is Ryan, I'm 25 years old, 5'11", 168 lbs, and been lifting solid for about 3 years now. Total of about 5 years. This site is setup very well and has a good proffessional layout to it. Two thumbs up to the owners/admin. for doing such a great job. I hope to help out with all the info I can, as well as learn from others. :D
 
Like I said, for a bunch of complicated reasons, but I'll try to explain:

During the cycle, when on aromatizing androgens, estrogen levels might skyrocket. Even on dosages in the 200-300mg/week range, estrogen levels might triple. So you use an anti-aromatase such as Arimidex, Femara, or Aromasin to limit estrogen conversion, thus bringing levels down to the high-normal range. What dosage you need is highly individual, and should preferably be ascertained via blood tests. Some estrogen is good, a lot of estrogen not so good - water retention, gyno, reduced libido, high bp etc... Anti-aromatase is not necessary when using non-aromatizables, of course.

Post-cycle you do not want an anti-aromatase. As androgen levels drop, you want to kickstart your endogenous T production as soon as possible. SHBG binds free testosterone, thus limiting bioavailable T. Using an anti-aromatase post-cycle will reduce SHBG, thus freeing up more bioavailable T. This might sound like a good thing, but via the HPTA feedback loop, you would get premature inhibition of T production before total T has had a chance to recover. So you have a situation of low-normal bioavailable T but low total T. This has been confirmed several times in blood tests.

Using a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex is a better idea. This is because they act as estrogens in some tissues, while blocking estrogen in others. SHBG stays elevated, but you still get the anti-estrogenic effect at the hypothalamus and pituitary, thus allowing endogenous T (both free and total) to return to normal.

Having used intermittent, low-dosage HCG during the cycle would also ensure that your testes are ready and able to produce testosterone when the post-cycle LH surge hits.
 
I prefer to use Clomid throughout at a mild dosage, with or without 6-OXO or another anti-aromatase, and then a higher dosage of Clomid after the cycle ends.
 
Good post Blade.
thumbs-up.gif
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 13 2004,4:52)]Having used intermittent, low-dosage HCG during the cycle would also ensure that your testes are ready and able to produce testosterone when the post-cycle LH surge hits.
Click to expand...
This is something I've been meaning to ask... maybe Blade or Bryan can chime in again.

How important is HCG? I ask because it seems less readily available than anti-aromatase or SERMs. Plus it needs to be injected, right?

For "soft-core" PH users like me (and I bet a lot of people), we tend to stick mostly to OTC substances and avoid injections. And our cycles are typically shorter, I would think.

Falling into this category, I never considered myself a candidate for HCG. But maybe I'm mistaken?
 
HCG doesn't assist in restoration of the HPTA, can desensitize your system to LH, may further suppress the HPTA, and causes an estrogen surge if an anti-aromatase is not being used concurrently.

On the positive side, it can prevent/reverse testicular atrophy.

I prefer to stick with Clomid, though.
 
I have been wondering about aromatase inhibitors and SHBG suppression for a while, and did some checking of the literature.

It appears that a link between aromatase inhibitors and decreased SHBG is somewhat inconclusive. I found four "relatively" (nothing found newer than '02) recent articles on the subject (see below).

The first (see below) found no siginificant changes in SHBG levels after four weeks of arimidex treatment in older men (~71 years) with prostate cancer. The second found a small but significant (16% 43.4+/- 4.8 vs 36.8 +/- 4.6nm/L) decrease in SHBG after up to 9 weeks of treatment in older men (~74yrs). However, the variation they show and overlap of SE makes their data seem suspect. One would also have to wonder if that small of a decrease is biologically relevant. The third study looked at aromatase treatment in teenage boys, and younger men, which may be more relevant to our concerns. They found no significant changes in SHBG after 10 days of arimidex (1mg/d) treatment.

Now, I don't want to pretend to be an expert on this, nor have I done an exhaustive review of the literature (maybe I missed an article which shows it conclusively). If it does have an effect on SHBG levels, could it be associated with sex (i.e. basal test levels), AAS use, or possibly it varies with the aromatase inhibitor used?

1: Smith MR, Kaufman D, George D, Oh WK, Kazanis M, Manola J, Kantoff PW. Selective aromatase inhibition for patients with androgen-independent prostate carcinoma. Cancer. 2002 Nov 1; 95(9): 1864-8.
PMID: 12404279 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Taxel P, Kennedy DG, Fall PM, Willard AK, Clive JM, Raisz LG.
The effect of aromatase inhibition on sex steroids, gonadotropins, and markers of bone turnover in older men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun; 86(6): 2869-74.
PMID: 11397902 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Mauras N, O'Brien KO, Klein KO, Hayes V.
Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Jul; 85(7): 2370-7.
PMID: 10902781 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
therefore the shouldnt advertise 6-oxo for best over the counter anti-e after a cycle...

-is zma usefull after a cycle (additionally) to recover t?
-can you tell me a shop where to buy: (arimidex, femara, exemestane, 6-oxo) ...I know where to buy nolvadex (30x20mg - 15 USD) but if you know a cheaper shop...
-I guess an r-blocker after the cycle is enough on low ph dossages? or do you have recognised significant differences while using both, an anti-a and r-blocker?
-whats the average dossage of nolvadex? (my information: 1-2 week 40mg, 3-4 week 20mg)
 
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