Prohormone cycle length

[Calkid]

Okay, based on the Bill Robert's Anabolic Pharmacology posted by ilFacell, I'm kind of at odds.

I think I'm going to go ahead with a moderate prohormone stack this summer with Dermabolics S1+, a transdermal 2:3 combo of 1-test and 4-AD.

However, Bill Roberts posts some info that has me wondering which is better, two 2-on 2-off cycles or one 4-on-4+-off cycle.

In favor of 4-week:

Quote[/b] ]Single short cycles, with many weeks allowed before beginning another new cycle, don’t seem so efficient. Usually, real strength gains don’t begin coming until the third week or so. While muscular weight may be gained in the first two weeks, it seems that the body is also adapting itself in a manner which will make growth very efficient in the next few weeks: or rather it would, if AAS were still available [Calkid note: Androgen Receptor upregulation?]. Thus, I can’t recommend doing isolated cycles which are shorter than four weeks at the minimum, and really five or six weeks is probably more reasonable. Only in the case of short acting drugs, with very frequent cycles, are two or three week cycles a good idea in my opinion.

But later he says,

Quote[/b] ]Where AAS doses are sufficient for good gains, an interesting pattern is seen. For the first two weeks of the cycle, only the hypothalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex hormones it senses. The pituitary is not inhibited at all: in fact, it is actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH (if any is provided) even moreso than normally. After two weeks however, the pituitary also becomes inhibited, and even if LHRH is provided, the pituitary will produce little or no LH. This then is a deeper type of inhibition. After this point, there seems to be no definite further "switching point" where inhibition again becomes deeper and harder to reverse. As a general rule, I would say that there seems to be little difference between using AAS for 3 weeks vs. 8 weeks: recovery is about the same either way.

So it seems like a 4-week cycle would inhibit natural test disproportionately to its length as compared to a 2-week cycle. That may make 2-weekers better.

Is there something else I should be aware of? What seems like a better idea? Are 1-test and 4-AD "fast-acting" enough to make a 2-week cycle worthwhile?

I want to make sure I'm informed about this stuff if I'm gonna do it.

 

[Mindwraith]

Sounds like two 2 week cycles might get around the problem.

 

[restless]

Quote[/b] (Calkid @ April 27 2004,4:36)]

Quote[/b] ]Single short cycles, with many weeks allowed before beginning another new cycle, don’t seem so efficient. Usually, real strength gains don’t begin coming until the third week or so. While muscular weight may be gained in the first two weeks, it seems that the body is also adapting itself in a manner which will make growth very efficient in the next few weeks: or rather it would, if AAS were still available [Calkid note: Androgen Receptor upregulation?]. Thus, I can’t recommend doing isolated cycles which are shorter than four weeks at the minimum, and really five or six weeks is probably more reasonable. Only in the case of short acting drugs, with very frequent cycles, are two or three week cycles a good idea in my opinion.

One thing about the remark you introduced in the test. There's no androgen receptor up or downregulation, if there were the body would need to keep increasing the amount of androgens produced to exert the same effect as the receptor downregulated.

But it does take some time for effects to become noticeable, unless the dosage is very high

Quote[/b] ]Is there something else I should be aware of? What seems like a better idea? Are 1-test and 4-AD "fast-acting" enough to make a 2-week cycle worthwhile?
I want to make sure I'm informed about this stuff if I'm gonna do it.

All "pro-hormones" are fast acting compared to long chain esters commonly used in AAS, so yes, they're fast acting enough.

 

[imported_ilFacell]

I would personally reccomend a two week cycle, especially if you are planning on including an aromatizing compound. Not to say that aromatization is culprit of hpta inhibition, however, it does play a role in negative feedback. In the span of 14 days time, supression of LH/FSH from the hypophysis will occur, however, full supression is doubtful. I would stick with a 2 week on, 4 week off cycle to be safe - especially if you don't plan on using a compound that is or mimicks the actions of LH (Human Chorionic Gonadtropin for example).

 

[Mindwraith]

So prohormones inhibit natural testosterone just like steroids do after a while?

Also, what prohormones do you guys use?

 

[restless]

Quote[/b] (Mindwraith @ April 27 2004,6:02)]So prohormones inhibit natural testosterone just like steroids do after a while?

Prohormones are steroids. Plain and simple.

 

[Calkid]

Restless... Bill Roberts seems to think that AR receptors do upregulate: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article....ion.htm

I think I've also heard blade or bryan say it as well.

If that's the case, would one two-week cycle's AR upregulation last long enough to influence the subsequent 2-week cycle?

 

[restless]

Ah, by upregulation he means the quantitative increase of the AR. I though only training did this and it never crossed my mind that androgens could do this and frankly, it makes no sense to me.

I'll have to check it out and get back to you on this.

 

[restless]

Actually, he specifically states in that second article that androgens do not upregulate the androgen receptor.

 

[Calkid]

You sure about that? Scroll down to the section titled "Conclusions from Scientific Research"

 

[imported_ilFacell]

Quote[/b] ]Conclusions from Scientific Research

As androgen levels decrease from normal to zero, production of AR mRNA may increase in some tissues. However, the number of ARs does not necessarily increase, because the half life of the ARs decreases with lower concentrations of androgen.

As androgen levels increase from normal to supraphysiological, numbers of ARs in some tissues have been shown to increase. Such an increase is upregulation. The increase may be due primarily or entirely to increase in half-life of the AR resulting from higher androgen level.

There is no scientific evidence to support the popular view that AAS use might be expected to result in downregulation of the AR relative to receptor levels associated with normal androgen levels.

 

[Jon Stark]

Calkid, I replied to your PM with a response so rife with speculation I would be ashamed to post it here.

In a nutshell, I suggested iterated 2 week cycles. I really liked S1+, hope you have a similarly good experience. I tried M1T recently, and I actually think I like S1+ better (save for the fact that it's easier to take a pill). People seem to react differently, though.

 

[Calkid]

Jon -- thanks much, I really appreciate the detailed PM.

One question, how long do you feel it took for you to recover from a 4-weeker?

From Roberts' sample two-weeker (tren, dbol, oxandrolone stack) available on the same site, the guy had more than fully recovered his test after two weeks, and maybe even sooner based on his subjective report.

If that's the case, your encouragement to do multiple 2-week cycles sounds pretty good.

My one concern is that in doing so I may not see the sort of domino effect of gains that one may see in a longer cycle. I mean, a lot of guys say that the effects don't seem to kick in until after a couple weeks. I'm wondering in my mind if the second two-weeker would be even more productive than the first due to some priming effect, maybe AR upregulation. But what's the timeframe on AR upregulation? Will they downregulate to normal during the time I'm off?

 

[restless]

That is so weird. So the more androgens you take the more AR there will be?

 

[Mindwraith]

Quote[/b] ]Prohormones are steroids. Plain and simple.

So then why would it not actually be more counterproductive to take prohormones or steroids given that natural testosterone production is inhibited after a single 4 week cycle? How temporary is this inhibition?

 

[restless]

Quote[/b] (Mindwraith @ April 28 2004,3:42)]

Quote[/b] ]Prohormones are steroids. Plain and simple.

So then why would it not actually be more counterproductive to take prohormones or steroids given that natural testosterone production is inhibited after a single 4 week cycle? How temporary is this inhibition?

I don't understand your question. What do you mean by couterproductive?

 

[restless]

This upregulation thing seems to be quite a case for larger amounts of androgens, but there are some things I'm find hard to conciliate.
Do the increased number of AR's resulting form the upregulation remain after discontinuing exogenous androgen supplementation? And if not, wouldn't this too be a form of downregulation?

 

[Jon Stark]

Quote[/b] (Calkid @ April 28 2004,4:45)]One question, how long do you feel it took for you to recover from a 4-weeker?

It was funny, in the 5th week my lifts kept going up. Not sure what explains this -- maybe AR upregulation?

Then in the 6th week I stalled out, and I suffered reversals in the 7th and 8th. I didn't do any blood work, but I'd guesstimate it probably did take 4 weeks to get back to normal ranges. I used oral 6OXO for recovery, if I recall. I really dropped the ball in the nutrition department.

Quote[/b] (Calkid @ April 28 2004,4:45)]My one concern is that in doing so I may not see the sort of domino effect of gains that one may see in a longer cycle. I mean, a lot of guys say that the effects don't seem to kick in until after a couple weeks. I'm wondering in my mind if the second two-weeker would be even more productive than the first due to some priming effect, maybe AR upregulation. But what's the timeframe on AR upregulation? Will they downregulate to normal during the time I'm off?

That's the big question. And it's what makes stopping at the second week for a brief recovery phase hard to do, psychologically. I'm doing it right now, myself. You start seeing some benefits and then just quit.

But I guess we're gambling that we'll benefit from being in that "shallow" and more quickly correctable state of suppression Roberts' describes.

And if you look at the results curve I described from my own S1+ experience -- where I saw continued gains in my first week off, and didn't really start dropping off until my third week off -- it would seem to provide some comfort that 2 weekers might be a good strategy.

One more thing regarding recovery... I mentioned tribulus in my PM, but garlic may actually be a cheaper and have more evidence of efficacy when used for the same purpose (stimulating pituitary to produce LH). One abstract, but given how cheap garlic is, why not give it a shot?

J Nutr. 2001 Aug;131(8):2150-6. Related Articles, Links

Garlic supplementation increases testicular testosterone and decreases plasma corticosterone in rats fed a high protein diet.

Oi Y, Imafuku M, Shishido C, Kominato Y, Nishimura S, Iwai K.

Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Faculty of Home Economics, Kobe Women's University, Suma-ku, Kobe 654-8585, Japan. [email protected]

The effects of garlic supplementation on protein metabolism were investigated by measuring testis testosterone and plasma corticosterone in rats fed diets with different protein levels. In Experiment 1, rats were fed experimental diets with different protein levels (40, 25 or 10 g/100 g casein) with or without 0.8 g/100 g garlic powder. After 28 d of feeding, testosterone contents in the testis were significantly higher and plasma corticosterone concentrations were significantly lower in rats fed 40 and 25% casein diets with garlic powder than in those fed the same diets without garlic powder. Urinary excretion of 17-ketosteroid (an index of testosterone), nitrogen balance and hepatic arginase activity were significantly higher in rats fed the 40% casein diet with garlic powder than in the 40% casein controls. In Experiment 2, the effect of diallyldisulfide (a major volatile sulfur-containing compound in garlic) on the secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the pituitary gland, which regulates testosterone production in the testis, was investigated in anesthetized rats. Plasma LH concentration increased dose dependently after administration of diallyldisulfide (P < 0.01, r = 0.558). These results suggest that dietary supplementation with 0.8 g/100 g garlic alters hormones associated with protein anabolism by increasing testicular testosterone and decreasing plasma corticosterone in rats fed a high protein diet.

 

[Calkid]

Quote[/b] (Mindwraith @ April 28 2004,7:42)]So then why would it not actually be more counterproductive to take prohormones or steroids given that natural testosterone production is inhibited after a single 4 week cycle? How temporary is this inhibition?

Because with maximized training and diet, so much mass can be gained that even with a subsequent loss due to low testosterone there is a large net gain of muscle mass.

From what I"ve read, the inhibition lasts about the length of the cycle.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Just a couple quick comments.

1) Yes androgen receptors do upregulate. The more testosterone there is floating around the more receptors you get. This is a very general rule and does not apply to all tissues. Nor does it happen to the same extent in all muscles. In general, the shoulder girdle (shoulder level all the way around the body) is most sensitive to testosterone.

2) Yes, in general it takes as long as you were on to regain baseline levels. However Bill's 2-on/4-off cycle is designed to speed recovery by using such short on cycles. According to Bill, the pituitary may actually increase sensitivity to LH during the 2 week low LH period.