Sample Routine

smoundzou

New Member
I've been considering an HST routine for a few weeks now.. I've looked over the samle routines on the HST main page and I'm just wanting to get some feedback on a few things.. Regarding Tri's.. would it be ok to replace the extensions with CG Bench?

Also, I'm interested in doing more of a 12-8-6 Cycle.. something like

wk 1: 1X12
WK 2: 2X12
WK 3: 2X8
WK 4: 3X8
WK 5: 3X6
WK 6: 4X6

Etc.....

any pro's or con's regarding skipping the 15's?

Here's a sample Routine.. Please critique

Monday:
Squats
SLDL
Calf Raises
Flat Bench
Hang Clean & Press---Shrug added
DB Rows
Pull Ups pronated grip
Incline DB Curl
CG Bench

Wednesday:
Deads---Shrug added
Incline DB Bench
Decline Bench
Arnolds
BB Rows
Pull Ups supinated grip
BB Curls
CG Bench

Friday:
Squats
SLDL
Calf Raises
Flat Bench
Hang Clean & Press---Shrug added
DB Rows
Pull Ups pronated grip
Incline DB Curl
CG Bench

I normally do abs on Sat and light cardio on Tuesday/Thursdays.. no more than 30 minutes..
 
Hi and welcome!

12/8/6 is ok but why the change? Anyway choice is choice I suppose!

Small change, rather reduce on the second week when the weights get heavier on each semicycle.

Routine OK, you may want to shorten it some when you hit the 5's...up to you!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">any pro's or con's regarding skipping the 15's?</div>

No cons if you are doing 12's.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">12/8/6 is ok but why the change? Anyway choice is choice I suppose!</div>

The 8-6 mesocycle progression isn't that fantastic. Small changes in the # of reps works better when sets are 5 reps or less -- for instance, progressing from 5 to 3 and then to your 1RM. Stick with 12-8-5 or 12-8-4.
 
What about the set progression?? Would I be better off doing..

Wk 1-2 1x12
Wk 3-4 2x8
Wk 5-6 3x5
wk 7-8 4x3

I understand even though I'll be working with less than max.. as the sets progress even with lower reps. the routine is going to get more difficult.. and some of the exercises will more than likely have to be cut.. If so I'm sure I'll drop the iso's and stick with the best compounds..
 
Less is more... esp. with your first HST cycle.

Wanting to jump straight in with so many exercises coupled with the rep range changes - smacks of HIT.

Simplify &amp; Win
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So simpplify and win would mean....
WK 1-2: 1X12
WK 3-4: 2X8
WK 5-6: 2X4
etc......

If incorrect, please post a suggestion..
Thanks

Also, not wanting to re-invent the wheel, but I'm 44, for another week anyway... been training for a while and I have my own preferences for certain exercises.. as we all do
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 I do realize as sets progress, I'll need to drop certain exercises..
 
Let's compare 15-10-5 to 12-8-6.

15-10-5

Greater range
Longer progression
Greater load increments
Heavier end of range

12-8-6

Smaller range
Shorter progression
Smaller load increments
Lighter end of range

It looks like 15-10-5 is superior to 12-8-6. Furthermore, your sample program increases in volume for some strange reason. Perhaps it's because it does not increase in load within each rep range. HST sample program decreases in volume because it increases in load within each rep range.

Here's another sample program:

A/B

BB DL-shrug/SQ
BB Row
BB OH press
Dips
Chins

With a corresponding sample rep range and load scheme:

Load in kg
rep ranges 15-10-5-5

DL

65 xx 70 xx 75 xx
80 xx 85 xx 90 xx
95 xx 100 xxx 105 xxx
105 xxx 105 xxx 105 xxx

SQ

xx 50 xx 55 xx 60
xx 65 xx 70 xx 75
xx 80 xx 85 xx 90
xx 90 xx 90 xx 90

ROW / OP

40 40 40 42.5 42.5 42.5
45 45 45 47.5 47.5 47.5
50 50 50 52.5 52.5 52.5
55 55 55 55 55 55

Dips/chins
etc

I conclude that the sample program you presented demonstrates a lack of understanding of the underlying principles of HST. If you designed that sample program, please consider studying those principles thoroughly and bringing the appropriate corrections. HST is not a program in the classical sense. Instead, HST is a set of principles on which a program is based. Understanding the principles is critical to designing an effective program. The sample HST program is just that, a sample. In itself, the sample program is not a rule by which to abide. Instead, the rules to follow are the principles on which the sample program is based.
 
15 , 10 , 5 , was intended to be the easiest to communicate , most basic template , that would be the simplest to understand for the largest segment of population. It actually came with a disclaimer to this effect (that you can find - I'm too lazy right now) , something about maximum efficiency getting slightly sacrificed in the name of &quot;reaching&quot; the most people , and that people would figure out the optimals over time any way. Never at any time was it presented as &quot;the way&quot;.
I have gotten startlingly better results with 10,8,5,3 than I ever got with 15,10,5 - I would only do 15's if injured or feeling injury could be imminent.

The case could (and has on other threads) been made that 2 weeks of 15's after 2 weeks of SD makes a whole month &quot;getting ready&quot; for the working , hypertrophy weights . 15's are an endurance rep range , even bryan reccommends skipping them if you don't feel joint/injury issues - .

IMHO rep range &quot;rigidness&quot; has no real-world benefit - we should demostrate an understanding of what Bryan set forth by taking responsibility for finding our own optimal variations instead of perpetuating what was set forth as a broad outline as &quot;the best way&quot;. I as a higher than average fast twitch fiber guy , get more growth out of slightly lower rep ranges , the point wasn't that 15,10, and 5 are magical it was to mix an endurance(metabolic) , a hypertrophy , and a strength phase .

With all that said I would recommend a basic vanilla your first time thru - I wouldn't try to improve or optimize something without learning it first .

And I'd go 12,8,5or4 instead of 6 , just to get a little further in the strength range but thats just me....IMHO of course.
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<div>
(RUSS @ Sep. 06 2007,12:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">15 , 10 , 5 , was intended to be the easiest to communicate , most basic template , that would be the simplest to understand for the largest segment of population. It actually came with a disclaimer to this effect (that you can find - I'm too lazy right now) , something about  maximum efficiency getting slightly sacrificed in the name of &quot;reaching&quot; the most people , and that people would figure out the optimals over time any way. Never at any time was it presented as &quot;the way&quot;.
                    I have gotten startlingly better results with 10,8,5,3 than I ever got with 15,10,5 - I would only do 15's if injured or feeling injury could be imminent.

                     The case could (and has on other threads) been made that 2 weeks of 15's after 2 weeks of SD makes a whole month &quot;getting ready&quot; for the working , hypertrophy weights . 15's are an endurance rep range , even bryan reccommends skipping them if you don't feel joint/injury issues - .

                      IMHO rep range &quot;rigidness&quot; has no real-world benefit - we should demostrate an understanding of what Bryan set forth by taking responsibility   for finding our own optimal variations instead of perpetuating what was set forth as a broad outline as &quot;the best way&quot;. I as a higher than average fast twitch fiber guy , get more growth out of   slightly lower rep ranges , the point wasn't that 15,10, and 5 are magical it was to mix an endurance(metabolic) , a hypertrophy , and a strength phase .

                       With all that said I would recommend a basic vanilla your first time thru - I wouldn't  try to improve or optimize something without  learning it first .

                        And I'd go 12,8,5or4 instead of 6 , just to get a little further in the strength range but thats just me....IMHO of course.
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After reading through the site, I did arrive at the conclusion that 15s are not necessary and can be replaced with 12-8-4... My mistake for using 6 but honestly didn't think 1 rep would make a difference..

Now that I've received several comments on the rep scheme. any critique on the actual routine?  Also, the only sample routine I could find on the site was the one on the actual program page.. Can you direct me to other sample routines?
 
You've got yourself set up to do 1x8 exersizes and 2x9exersizes a week , you could benefit by simplifying the movements down to 6 or less . The set progression really depends on how many movements you decide on . Simplify movements first then decide set volume parameters.IMHO
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<div>
(RUSS @ Sep. 06 2007,13:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You've got yourself set up to do 1x8 exersizes and 2x9exersizes a week , you could benefit by simplifying the movements down to 6 or less . The set progression really depends on how many movements you decide on . Simplify movements first then decide set volume parameters.IMHO
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</div>
I didn't realize the routines needed to be balanced each day.. The reason for 9 on monday and Friday and 8 on wednesday is due to only wanting to do deads on Wednesday.. so on wednesday i  took out squats, SLDL and calfs and added Deads and another bench variation. If anything I would prefer to just add SLDL to wednesday and have a total of 9 exercises per day.

The sample HST routine has 14 exercises listed daily?  some doing 2 sets... for a total of 22 sets per session.. so I'll assume 9 is OK? If not, please advise which exercises you would consider removing or replacing.. I prefer compounds over Isolations..

WK 1-2: 2X12
WK 3-4: 2X8
WK 5-6: 2X4
WK 7-8: 2X4
1 Week off, restart new cycle on 12's

Monday:
Squats
SLDL
Calf Raises
Flat Bench
Hang Clean &amp; Press---Shrug added
DB Rows
Pull Ups pronated grip
Incline DB Curl
CG Bench

Wednesday:
Sqats
Deads---Shrug added
Incline DB Bench
Decline Bench
Arnolds
BB Rows
Pull Ups supinated grip
BB Curls
CG Bench

Friday:
Squats
SLDL
Calf Raises
Flat Bench
Hang Clean &amp; Press---Shrug added
DB Rows
Pull Ups pronated grip
Incline DB Curl
CG Bench

Thanks for the help..
 
<div>
(RUSS @ Sep. 06 2007,15:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thats not what I meant at all.
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</div>
OK.. so what did you mean?  Is the routine that horribly off?

The last routine is what I would like to do.. Is it OK?
If not, please advise what exercises you would remove or replace..

I also don't want to do 15's but would prefer to start on 12's.. followed by 8's then 4's..

Please suggest a rep scheme..

Thanks
 
<div>
(smoundzou @ Sep. 06 2007,15:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(RUSS @ Sep. 06 2007,15:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thats not what I meant at all.
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</div>
OK.. so what did you mean?  Is the routine that horribly off?</div>
Its not about the balance at all . It's about the number of exersizes , but at the time I posted I didn't catch your caveat that you would possibly drop some movements as the cycle progressed - I think as long as you leave that option wide open and pay close attention to signs of overtraining you'll be fine.
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And I just gotta say (hey you DID ask) that you could take curls and closegrips out and find your benching , pressing , chinning, and rowing benefit while arms do just as well perhaps better - allowing better CNS recovery/resource management , giving more bang for the buck and more total growth. It's your choice - as it is planned isn't &quot;horribly off&quot; at all just perhaps a little fat could be trimmed - remember that for a full week at a time (second week of rep ranges) you are working in the 90% and + range (RM) if your cycle is plotted according to the HST percentage giudelines of 75,80,85,90,95,100%RM.

Weak links (like arms)can effect the compounds in a big way if they get fried from &quot;optimistic&quot; volume planning.

Also I wont tell you what to do - but for your first cycle , a simplify and win vanilla progression is really a good idea . I can't really go to sweden and start &quot;improving&quot; thier language without first learning to speak it. One cycle will enable you to &quot;get&quot; HST in the quickest possible way , then use what you learned to &quot;tweak&quot;. But like I said I am not trying to tell you what to do here , it's your choice of course.
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Sounds good.. I'll go over the routine again and post a revised one. if you could, keep a lookout and give me a final opinion.

Thanks
 
Like I said, the sample program is just that, a sample program. It does not constitute a rule to follow. Instead, the rules to follow are the principles on which the sample program is based. Here they are:

Minimum Effective Load

Frequency

Load progression

Strategic Deconditioning

Minimum effective load is the minimum load that will stimulate a growth response. The muscle must be stimulated with enough frequency to create a chronic anabolic environment. The load must be progressed to stay ahead of the RBE (repeated bout effect). Strategic deconditioning is intended to render the muscle sensitive to the lighter loads at the beginning of a cycle such as the 15s. All of this in order to do multiple cycles to continue to grow.

The rep range is a range within which the load is progressed while the reps remain the same. The sample program is simplified to use the same reps for two weeks while progressing the load during that same two weeks. For instance, the 15s will begin at a load less than 15RM and will progress toward the 15RM from one workout to the next. The rep ranges 15-10-5 are not strict. Instead, they represent a load. It's just easier to use rep ranges. You can cluster reps and/or do more than just 15 reps during the 15s. In fact, you can cluster reps in any rep range as long as you progress the load and do a sufficient amount of reps per workout. An example below:

15RM = 150
two week progression, 3 workouts/week
100 110 120 130 140 150
or
130 130 140 140 150 150
or any other load progression as long as the load is progressed

not
150 150 150 150 150 150
because there is no load progression

As we can see, the load at the beginning of the two week period is much lighter than the 15RM we established. As long as this load is effective at stimulating a growth response, it will fulfill its purpose. It doesn't remain sufficient for long because of the RBE, hence the load progression toward the actual 15RM. The same principles apply throughout the cycle from the beginning of the 15s to the end of the 5s and heavier.

You selected 12-8-4 as your rep scheme. This means that you will progress toward your 12/8/4RM at the end of their respective two week block. Then you will continue to use the actual 4RM load for the next two week block after that to complete your cycle. Using the same 4RM load for those last two weeks is feasible due to the heavier load which remains effective far longer than 15RM or 12RM for instance.

I add that you should read the front page &quot;What is HST?&quot; and the FAQ forum.
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ Sep. 06 2007,17:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Like I said, the sample program is just that, a sample program. It does not constitute a rule to follow. Instead, the rules to follow are the principles on which the sample program is based. Here they are:

Minimum Effective Load

Frequency

Load progression

Strategic Deconditioning

Minimum effective load is the minimum load that will stimulate a growth response. The muscle must be stimulated with enough frequency to create a chronic anabolic environment. The load must be progressed to stay ahead of the RBE (repeated bout effect). Strategic deconditioning is intended to render the muscle sensitive to the lighter loads at the beginning of a cycle such as the 15s. All of this in order to do multiple cycles to continue to grow.

The rep range is a range within which the load is progressed while the reps remain the same. The sample program is simplified to use the same reps for two weeks while progressing the load during that same two weeks. For instance, the 15s will begin at a load less than 15RM and will progress toward the 15RM from one workout to the next. The rep ranges 15-10-5 are not strict. Instead, they represent a load. It's just easier to use rep ranges. You can cluster reps and/or do more than just 15 reps during the 15s. In fact, you can cluster reps in any rep range as long as you progress the load and do a sufficient amount of reps per workout. An example below:

15RM = 150
two week progression, 3 workouts/week
100 110 120 130 140 150
or
130 130 140 140 150 150
or any other load progression as long as the load is progressed

not
150 150 150 150 150 150
because there is no load progression

As we can see, the load at the beginning of the two week period is much lighter than the 15RM we established. As long as this load is effective at stimulating a growth response, it will fulfill its purpose. It doesn't remain sufficient for long because of the RBE, hence the load progression toward the actual 15RM. The same principles apply throughout the cycle from the beginning of the 15s to the end of the 5s and heavier.

You selected 12-8-4 as your rep scheme. This means that you will progress toward your 12/8/4RM at the end of their respective two week block. Then you will continue to use the actual 4RM load for the next two week block after that to complete your cycle. Using the same 4RM load for those last two weeks is feasible due to the heavier load which remains effective far longer than 15RM or 12RM for instance.

I add that you should read the front page &quot;What is HST?&quot; and the FAQ forum.</div>
Very nice condensed explaination.. So let me ask this..

Assuming I do the routine below and chose to do a
12/8/4 rep scheme, since this is my first time doing an HST cycle, would you recommend only doing 1 set per rep cycle for the entire 8 week?  Or would you think doing 1set for the 12's and then bumping it up to, 2 sets for the 8's and 4's would render good results? 

If it matters, I've done a similar routine to the one below with a 3X10/8/6 rep scheme on everything but Calfs and Bi's and Tri's. usually a 3X15 for calfs and 3x10 for bi's and tri's.. so I don't think over-training, CNS fatigue is going to be a factor..

but would appreicate any critique on the routine.. regarding exercises being cut or replaced.

I'm sure this post is getting annoying but I would rather find everything out on the front end rather than have to rework a routine once I start it.. Thanks

Monday:
Squats
SLDL
Calf Raises
Flat Bench
Hang Clean &amp; Press---Shrug added
DB Rows
Pull Ups pronated grip
Incline DB Curl
CG Bench

Wednesday:
Sqats
Deads---Shrug added
Incline DB Bench
Decline Bench
Arnolds
BB Rows
Pull Ups supinated grip
BB Curls
CG Bench

Friday:
Squats
SLDL
Calf Raises
Flat Bench
Hang Clean &amp; Press---Shrug added
DB Rows
Pull Ups pronated grip
Incline DB Curl
CG Bench
 
Concerning how to determine the volume.

From this:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....;t=4628

Quote:

=====
So, should you increase, maintain or decrease &quot;volume&quot; as the cycle progresses? It depends! I know how many people hate to hear that...but its true. Here is how you decide. Keep in mind that these factors are to considered “collectively”, meaning each factor must be weighted, not taken as an absolute indicator.

Increase volume if:

You are never sore
You are never tired
You are not growing

Maintain volume if:

You are slightly sore most of the time
You are tired enough to sleep well, but not so tired you lose motivation to train.
You are noticeably “fuller”

Decrease volume if:

You are experiencing over use pain, and strain symptoms in joints and/or muscles.
You are tired and irritable all the time, yet don’t sleep well.
Strength levels are significantly decreasing.
=====

Begin with 1 set of each rep range. In your case, 1x12, 1x8, 1x4. Adjust as needed as you go along. As you adjust, consider this:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....;t=4617


The repeated bout effect. It's a response to training that renders the muscle resistant to the stimulus. As we train the muscle, it responds in two ways. a- It grows. b- It becomes resistant to the stimulus. The greater the stimulus, the greater the growth response, the greater the RBE response. Two ways to defeat the RBE:

Do as much as possible.

Do as little as possible.

HST incorporates both. It trains the muscle as frequently as possible. It trains it as little as possible each time it trains it. If we were to do as much as possible all the time, the RBE would catch up to us very quickly and it would become increasingly more difficult to stimulate a growth response for two reasons. a- The loads would be too heavy for us to lift. b- The muscle would be too resistant to the loads we are able to lift. Anyway before this happens, the CNS would fry. And as this happens, we won't be able to lift a thing until we recovered sufficiently.

So, do as little as possible but do it as often as possible over time. And each time you do it, increase the load. Eventually, we will reach a point where the loads will be too heavy for two reasons. a- We can't lift it. b- It's too risky. So in comes Strategic Deconditioning.

SD or Strategic Deconditioning is intended to render the muscle sensitive again to the light loads of the beginning of the cycle such as the 12s as you have selected. It's a way to defeat the RBE. It is this that allows the lifter to do multiple cycles and continue to grow. It is this that allows the lifter to use the same loads as before and continue to grow. It is this that allows the lifter to do as little as possible yet stimulate a growth response.

In the end, how much volume you do is up to you.
 
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