Testosterone in HST vs Traditional?

W

windjammer

New Member
I have just started my first HST cycle and am now in the 10s. One thing that I have noticed is the decreased level of intensity as I train. I have always thought that the harder you push yourself the greater testosterone production, which we all know equates to gains in muscle mass. So, a traditional training program, where you hit say your 5-10 rep max everyday would produce more testosterone than HST would. Your thoughts on this?
 
Save your comments for the end of your first cycle, I'm sure your opinion will change!
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In a traditional program you are going to hit a strength plateau very quickly, right? If you cannot lift heavier, you are not going to gain muscle, right?

I think this is pretty simple maths. You Strategically Decondition. After some amount of time you start with 15s, rebuild connective tissue, each workout adding a little more weight. On your sixth session you max out on the weight you can handle with 15's and move to 10s. These build muscle mass. On your 6th session of 10s, you are again maxed out and move to 5s (or 8s or whatever you wanna do, but 5s for vanilla HST). These lower reps build strength.

With HST, you are looking at a solid, best of all worlds type work out program. With a traditional type program, you miss out on at least one facet of HST. And again, with a traditional program, when you max out on strength, you stop building muscle. HST allows you to gain strength slower, but while adding MORE muscle, and while increasing connective tissue health (this is an important one to me, when I'm 50, I still want to have cartilage and tendons and such). Personally, I like having MORE muscle. Not sure about you. Then again, I'm not a powerlifter. But if I was, I wouldn't be doing HST.

I'll also bet you skipped the 15's, huh? Only wussies skip the 15s.
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I would add to Fausto's comment to wait until after your 9 day SD and see how you feel (when you do a real HST WITH 15s). Let me guess, you're planning on skipping the SD, too?
 
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(javacody @ Jul. 11 2007,12:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In a traditional program you are going to hit a strength plateau very quickly, right? If you cannot lift heavier, you are not going to gain muscle, right?

I think this is pretty simple maths. You Strategically Decondition. After some amount of time you start with 15s, rebuild connective tissue, each workout adding a little more weight. On your sixth session you max out on the weight you can handle with 15's and move to 10s. These build muscle mass. On your 6th session of 10s, you are again maxed out and move to 5s (or 8s or whatever you wanna do, but 5s for vanilla HST). These lower reps build strength.

With HST, you are looking at a solid, best of all worlds type work out program. With a traditional type program, you miss out on at least one facet of HST. And again, with a traditional program, when you max out on strength, you stop building muscle. HST allows you to gain strength slower, but while adding MORE muscle, and while increasing connective tissue health (this is an important one to me, when I'm 50, I still want to have cartilage and tendons and such). Personally, I like having MORE muscle. Not sure about you. Then again, I'm not a powerlifter. But if I was, I wouldn't be doing HST.

I'll also bet you skipped the 15's, huh? Only wussies skip the 15s.
smile.gif


I would add to Fausto's comment to wait until after your 9 day SD and see how you feel (when you do a real HST WITH 15s). Let me guess, you're planning on skipping the SD, too?</div>
Wussies and those that tend to care about LBM wasting..those kinds of ppl.
 
So 15s waste LBM?

Isn't connective tissue part of your LBM? 15's help to build connective tissue, right?

Also, as far as my understanding goes (and I defer to you guys who have way more experience than me), the only thing wasting with 15s is muscle glycogen?

Again, with my limited understanding, I'm thinking that muscle without healthy tendons, etc. isn't really a good idea? Is my thinking on this wrong?

I personally hate doing 15s, but I thought that maybe Bryan had a pretty darn good reason for including them in HST? If you never do 15s, then are you really doing HST? Here's a quote from the main HST page (I know that Bryan has said you can skip 15s if you are not hurting, but I don't think he meant you never have to do 15s, you would simply do them every other cycle):

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Utilizing lactic acid as a stimulus for tendon repair/health
Now HST incorporates a few other things such as higher reps (for lactic acid) to prepare the muscles and tendons for future heavy loads. This serves as &quot;regular maintenance&quot;. Without it, you increase your risk of chronic injuries and pain. The metabolically-taxing reps enhance healing of strained tendons.</div>

Weren't you one of the people advising me to simply stick to HST when I thought about modifying my workout? Shouldn't everyone just starting out with HST stick with the basic program? Also, wasn't the OT specifically on HST in the HST forum?
 
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(javacody @ Jul. 11 2007,13:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So 15s waste LBM?

Isn't connective tissue part of your LBM? 15's help to build connective tissue, right?

Also, as far as my understanding goes (and I defer to you guys who have way more experience than me), the only thing wasting with 15s is muscle glycogen?

Again, with my limited understanding, I'm thinking that muscle without healthy tendons, etc. isn't really a good idea? Is my thinking on this wrong?

I personally hate doing 15s, but I thought that maybe Bryan had a pretty darn good reason for including them in HST? If you never do 15s, then are you really doing HST? Here's a quote from the main HST page (I know that Bryan has said you can skip 15s if you are not hurting, but I don't think he meant you never have to do 15s, you would simply do them every other cycle):

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Utilizing lactic acid as a stimulus for tendon repair/health
Now HST incorporates a few other things such as higher reps (for lactic acid) to prepare the muscles and tendons for future heavy loads. This serves as &quot;regular maintenance&quot;. Without it, you increase your risk of chronic injuries and pain. The metabolically-taxing reps enhance healing of strained tendons.</div>

Weren't you one of the people advising me to simply stick to HST when I thought about modifying my workout? Shouldn't everyone just starting out with HST stick with the basic program? Also, wasn't the OT specifically on HST in the HST forum?</div>
From the tone of your latest posts, I`d say you`ve become quite the guru yourself...so deferring is not quite useful or necessary, is it now?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From the tone of your latest posts, I`d say you`ve become quite the guru yourself...so deferring is not quite useful or necessary, is it now? </div>

Touchy, touchy! Ouch!
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Many people have seen gains from the 15's, and two weeks is long enough to tell if you put on some muscle, but each to his own.
 
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(Fausto @ Jul. 11 2007,15:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From the tone of your latest posts, I`d say you`ve become quite the guru yourself...so deferring is not quite useful or necessary, is it now? </div>

Touchy, touchy! Ouch!
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</div>
Not really.
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although he states that he has just started hst it doesnt say he didnt do 15's.it says,he is NOW in his 10's.

that said anyone who thinks 15's dont induce muscle hypertrophy is mistaken,my legs respond well around the 20 rep mark.
 
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(Totentanz @ Jul. 10 2007,23:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This really isn't going to matter at all.</div>
Agreed!
 
While I can't give you any advice on the testosterone effects, I will go with Fausto and say you should at least wait until finishing your cycle to give it a full opinion.  Things that seem to work great at the beginning may end up being detrimintal by the end, and things that seem to do jack may work wonders for you by the end.  For me, HST was the second as doing such fewer exercises, shortening my workouts, and using much lower weights seemed completely pointless.  After giving it a full cycle's chance, I plan on being around for quite a long time.  

If you haven't already, try posting your routine.  Maybe there are some things that we could give you some advice on.  Good luck.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From the tone of your latest posts, I`d say you`ve become quite the guru yourself...so deferring is not quite useful or necessary, is it now?</div>

I was joking around in my first post. 15s are very uncomfortable to me, and I'd assumed that they probably were to others, as well. I'm guessing this is why many folks skip them.

I've been doing HST for about a year now. I'm not an absolute beginner, but I've only tried out a few other types of workouts, so thats why I was deferring.

However, yours is the first post that I've seen that says 15s waste LBM. I did a search on the forum for 15 LBM and waste and while a lot of posts turned up (and I didn't read them all by a long shot), the ones I did look through (about 20 different posts) didn't mention this.

I'll gladly admit whenever I'm wrong, as I'm sure you can see from my previous posts.

I'm sorry that yet another one of my posts has rubbed you the wrong way Morgoth. I'll try to refrain from being me forevermore.
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I won't lie, I'm an absolute tard when it comes to diet (but I&quot;m learning), but I've done HST for about a year now and have put on lots of muscle and burned lots of fat. I know that HST works. I'm not even that strong yet, but have still been able to accomplish a lot.

Maybe you should write an FAQ entry on how to phrase ones posts so as not to piss off the great and mighty Morgoth, less he banish you to the kingdom or Richard Simmons.
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Notice the smiley. Its there for a reason, maybe because its hard to pick up on the tone of written language.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">its hard to pick up on the tone of written language</div>

#1 problem with web forums, online chat, and email
 
<div>
(javacody @ Jul. 11 2007,17:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From the tone of your latest posts, I`d say you`ve become quite the guru yourself...so deferring is not quite useful or necessary, is it now?</div>

I was joking around in my first post. 15s are very uncomfortable to me, and I'd assumed that they probably were to others, as well. I'm guessing this is why many folks skip them.

I've been doing HST for about a year now. I'm not an absolute beginner, but I've only tried out a few other types of workouts, so thats why I was deferring.

However, yours is the first post that I've seen that says 15s waste LBM. I did a search on the forum for 15 LBM and waste and while a lot of posts turned up (and I didn't read them all by a long shot), the ones I did look through (about 20 different posts) didn't mention this.

I'll gladly admit whenever I'm wrong, as I'm sure you can see from my previous posts.

I'm sorry that yet another one of my posts has rubbed you the wrong way Morgoth. I'll try to refrain from being me forevermore.
biggrin.gif


I won't lie, I'm an absolute tard when it comes to diet (but I&quot;m learning), but I've done HST for about a year now and have put on lots of muscle and burned lots of fat. I know that HST works. I'm not even that strong yet, but have still been able to accomplish a lot.

Maybe you should write an FAQ entry on how to phrase ones posts so as not to piss off the great and mighty Morgoth, less he banish you to the kingdom or Richard Simmons.
laugh.gif


Notice the smiley. Its there for a reason, maybe because its hard to pick up on the tone of written language.</div>
Because it`s fairly obvious that this forum is the only place where information WRT training exists. Your post(s) didn`t rub me in any way...but your sarcasm has impressed me highly, it`s certainly proof of mastery of written language. I do hope you won`t turn into a John Steel somewhere along the line...my Inbox can`t take the abuse again.

And disregard what I`ve said, it was due to the heat. The 15s are the roxxorz.
 
I'm gonna stir the kettle, just because it's hot outside and I'm cranky today.
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I think excessive use of high rep work does indeed cause muscle wasting, at least in me. I get great endurance benefits from high rep work, but that's really not what I'm after. If I were to alter HST in any way, I'd limit the 15-rep work to one week, and even then, only if you feel you need it.

Just MHO, others may vary
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I were to alter HST in any way, I'd limit the 15-rep work to one week, and even then, only if you feel you need it.</div>

Exactly what I did in my current routine. Got most of what I wanted out of it, but probably went a little too heavy.
 
i dont think doing 2wks of 15s is going to use up much LBM,and according to some articles and studies on lyle/dans sites,when using lighter or submax weights lift faster and work nearer to faliure.
 
Within a two week time frame, assuming you don't let your diet go to total crap, I don't see how you could lose a significant amount of muscle unless you did something really dumb or had a wasting disease. If you are dieting, I would definitely NOT recommend doing the 15s, however.


Anyway, back to the question at hand:

Increasing your testosterone through exercise isn't really going to mean much in terms of muscle growth. This has been discussed ad nauseam in the past. Changes in testosterone level won't mean much unless A. You are on HRT and normally have very low test levels or B. You are taking steroids.
Otherwise, there isn't going to be any noticeable effect. So... training a certain way in order to maximize hormonal response is going to be waste of time.
Just MHO.
 
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