Three Macrocycles In

[Drew Whitt]

Hey HST family

I was and am new to the lifting world, really only seriously started going to the gym in November of 2014, when an experienced lifting friend introduced me to HST. As of this past Saturday I've completed my third Macrocycle. So far, I haven't been really thrilled with the results i've seen in myself. To be honest I am kind of disappointed. I'm fully aware you don't get huge over night and gaining muscle is a slow process, but I feel like I really haven't made much progress since starting. However, i've read a lot of very positive reviews about HST as a program so am trying to stay positive and hoping i'll start seeing results soon.

I have my exercises I do listed below and was hoping someone could maybe tell me, "looks good, keep up the good work," or "try these instead". I am primary focused on gaining muscle in my upper body if that helps clear anything up. (No, I'm not skipping legs, I just played soccer for 15 years so my legs are in pretty good shape) Really any advice or pointers are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Chest
-Machine chest press
-assisted dips
-Machine incline press
Back
-seated cable rows
-assisted pull ups
Biceps
-preacher curl machine (both arms)
-Single arm preacher curl machine
Triceps
-Rope extensions
-One arm extensions

Tuesday,Thursday,Saturday
Calves
-Calf raises on leg press machine
-single leg raises while holding dumbbell
Legs
-Incline leg press
Shoulders
-Lateral raises
-machine shoulder press
-rear delt
Traps
-Shrugs
Abs
-primarily crunches with med. ball

Just a few things I kind of think experience guys will immediately think to suggest.
-Regular benching, not on a machine,
unfortunately I've had to have two fairly major shoulder surgeries so i'm a bit nervous about doing a traditional bench press.
-Squatting
Again, due to the surgeries tendons where tightened in my shoulder, thus preventing me from getting my right arm back behind me and onto the bar for squatting position

 

[Totentanz]

More exercises does not equal more growth. You only need two chest exercises max, you should never have more chest exercises than back exercises. The pecs are miniscule compared to the size of the back. Further, since you've had work done on the shoulder area, it is important to maintain a good balance between chest/back. Biceps and Triceps do not need two lifts each either. Look up delts on an anatomy chart and decide if those three tiny muscles on each side of your body need more work than your back does. Remember that incline benching hits the delts to an extent. Lateral raises are not a good mass building exercise, you will not be able to maintain proper form with a 5 RM load. This is bad because the tension will not be applied correctly with heavy loads.

I would stop going six days a week if you are trying to gain mass. You elaborated on the routine but said nothing about diet, which is more important than the routine. Height, weight, rough bodyfat percentage? How much weight have you gained in three cycles and how much has your strength improved in the lifts you are doing? If you aren't tracking strength increases for your 5 RMs between cycles, start doing that now. Simplify your routine and get rid of the fluff, then get your calorie requirements figured out. Three cycles as a newbie should have brought you a good amount of muscle gain if you were eating enough to gain 1-2 lbs a week throughout each cycle.

Using the exercises you already have, I would trim the routine down to this:

Monday/Wednesday/Friday

Seated Cable Row
Assisted Dips
Assisted Pullups
Machine Incline Press
Shoulder Press
Shrugs
Leg Press
Leg curl or SLDL/RDL
Calves

You can move the leg work to Tues/Thurs if you must. Take Saturday and Sunday off from lifting each week to eat and recover. Don't bother with abs unless you want your abs to become larger. Both those triceps exercises aren't so great. You would be better off with close grip bench or tricep dips, preferably the seated variant. Only one lift though, both your chest exercises will overlap with triceps and anterior delts. You probably don't need to hit biceps but if you must, then choose one but not both. Your back exercises both overlap with biceps. Shrugs and Shoulder Press just to finish off the delts and upper traps. Remember that rows will overlap with the posterior delts, so the overhead shoulder press is plenty. Are you able to do deadlifts? Those are great for back thickness and building the upper traps.

The idea is to be more efficient, meaning less work while still covering the entire body. You can put in tons of work in the gym but it's all useless if you aren't eating enough to build muscle. Since you are relatively newer to lifting, you can make great gains without killing yourself in the gym all the time. You should only be spending 3-5 hours in there a week, ideally. Maybe a bit longer in the later 5s.

Also, have you already read the ebook? http://thinkmuscle.com/community/threads/the-hst-ebook.41974/

 

[Drew Whitt]

More exercises does not equal more growth. You only need two chest exercises max, you should never have more chest exercises than back exercises. The pecs are miniscule compared to the size of the back. Further, since you've had work done on the shoulder area, it is important to maintain a good balance between chest/back. Biceps and Triceps do not need two lifts each either. Look up delts on an anatomy chart and decide if those three tiny muscles on each side of your body need more work than your back does. Remember that incline benching hits the delts to an extent. Lateral raises are not a good mass building exercise, you will not be able to maintain proper form with a 5 RM load. This is bad because the tension will not be applied correctly with heavy loads.

I would stop going six days a week if you are trying to gain mass. You elaborated on the routine but said nothing about diet, which is more important than the routine. Height, weight, rough bodyfat percentage? How much weight have you gained in three cycles and how much has your strength improved in the lifts you are doing? If you aren't tracking strength increases for your 5 RMs between cycles, start doing that now. Simplify your routine and get rid of the fluff, then get your calorie requirements figured out. Three cycles as a newbie should have brought you a good amount of muscle gain if you were eating enough to gain 1-2 lbs a week throughout each cycle.

Using the exercises you already have, I would trim the routine down to this:

Monday/Wednesday/Friday

Seated Cable Row
Assisted Dips
Assisted Pullups
Machine Incline Press
Shoulder Press
Shrugs
Leg Press
Leg curl or SLDL/RDL
Calves

You can move the leg work to Tues/Thurs if you must. Take Saturday and Sunday off from lifting each week to eat and recover. Don't bother with abs unless you want your abs to become larger. Both those triceps exercises aren't so great. You would be better off with close grip bench or tricep dips, preferably the seated variant. Only one lift though, both your chest exercises will overlap with triceps and anterior delts. You probably don't need to hit biceps but if you must, then choose one but not both. Your back exercises both overlap with biceps. Shrugs and Shoulder Press just to finish off the delts and upper traps. Remember that rows will overlap with the posterior delts, so the overhead shoulder press is plenty. Are you able to do deadlifts? Those are great for back thickness and building the upper traps.

The idea is to be more efficient, meaning less work while still covering the entire body. You can put in tons of work in the gym but it's all useless if you aren't eating enough to build muscle. Since you are relatively newer to lifting, you can make great gains without killing yourself in the gym all the time. You should only be spending 3-5 hours in there a week, ideally. Maybe a bit longer in the later 5s.

Also, have you already read the ebook? http://thinkmuscle.com/community/threads/the-hst-ebook.41974/

Sorry but much of what you said went over my head. I will try to answer things as I see them from your response.

-I'm about 5'9" and 195 lbs. Not sure about body fat.
-I currently go to the gym 6x a week because I'm incredibly hungry, if that makes sense, to do this and make this part of my life and don't enjoy having an off day every other day
-You mentioned incline benching also hits part of your delts, is this also true for having to use a machine which is what I have to do?
-The only reason I have been doing two exercises for bis and tris is to prevent one from arm carrying the other in the exercise.
-I have really tried deadlifting. I have spent probably 3+ plus hours watching videos on perfecting the form and the do's and don't's of the lift but I always end up hurting my lower back.
-I definitely follow your logic in being more efficient instead of doing more exercises, just do to my lack of knowledge I'm not really aware of all the muscles each exercise hits and I am kind of anal about all this and want to make sure I am doing everything I can.

I will take your advice in changing my routine but I will admit i'm a bit weary that there are no bicep or tricep exercises in there.

On a different note, do you have any other websites or articles or anything about what my diet should look like? again I'm simply ignorant to all this but very eager to learn.

Thanks Totentanz

 

[Drew Whitt]

More exercises does not equal more growth. You only need two chest exercises max, you should never have more chest exercises than back exercises. The pecs are miniscule compared to the size of the back. Further, since you've had work done on the shoulder area, it is important to maintain a good balance between chest/back. Biceps and Triceps do not need two lifts each either. Look up delts on an anatomy chart and decide if those three tiny muscles on each side of your body need more work than your back does. Remember that incline benching hits the delts to an extent. Lateral raises are not a good mass building exercise, you will not be able to maintain proper form with a 5 RM load. This is bad because the tension will not be applied correctly with heavy loads.

I would stop going six days a week if you are trying to gain mass. You elaborated on the routine but said nothing about diet, which is more important than the routine. Height, weight, rough bodyfat percentage? How much weight have you gained in three cycles and how much has your strength improved in the lifts you are doing? If you aren't tracking strength increases for your 5 RMs between cycles, start doing that now. Simplify your routine and get rid of the fluff, then get your calorie requirements figured out. Three cycles as a newbie should have brought you a good amount of muscle gain if you were eating enough to gain 1-2 lbs a week throughout each cycle.

Using the exercises you already have, I would trim the routine down to this:

Monday/Wednesday/Friday

Seated Cable Row
Assisted Dips
Assisted Pullups
Machine Incline Press
Shoulder Press
Shrugs
Leg Press
Leg curl or SLDL/RDL
Calves

You can move the leg work to Tues/Thurs if you must. Take Saturday and Sunday off from lifting each week to eat and recover. Don't bother with abs unless you want your abs to become larger. Both those triceps exercises aren't so great. You would be better off with close grip bench or tricep dips, preferably the seated variant. Only one lift though, both your chest exercises will overlap with triceps and anterior delts. You probably don't need to hit biceps but if you must, then choose one but not both. Your back exercises both overlap with biceps. Shrugs and Shoulder Press just to finish off the delts and upper traps. Remember that rows will overlap with the posterior delts, so the overhead shoulder press is plenty. Are you able to do deadlifts? Those are great for back thickness and building the upper traps.

The idea is to be more efficient, meaning less work while still covering the entire body. You can put in tons of work in the gym but it's all useless if you aren't eating enough to build muscle. Since you are relatively newer to lifting, you can make great gains without killing yourself in the gym all the time. You should only be spending 3-5 hours in there a week, ideally. Maybe a bit longer in the later 5s.

Also, have you already read the ebook? http://thinkmuscle.com/community/threads/the-hst-ebook.41974/

Thank you for your help. I plan on moving to a three day routine doing the exercises you listed and finding a way to track 5 RM's. I also plan to seek additional help in regards to how to diet to gain a lot of muscle mass.

If you have any other suggestions at all please feel free to throw them at me, I am very eager to learn as much as I can from those who are experience.

 

[mickc1965]

@Drew Whitt,

In respect of diet for gains I would recommend that you start at say your body weight x 18 so in your case that would be around 3500 calories per day and monitor your increase in weight to keep weekly increases to between 1 and 2lbs if you gain too much then cut back calories and increase if gains are too low. Your protein intake should be a minimum of 1 gramme of protein to each lb of body weight ( I tend to go for 1.5 but most say that is more than required when bulking) and get around 25% of calories from fats and the remainder from carbs, a good app is MyFitnessPal that can help you track your macros.

 

[Mojo77]

While more info is needed regarding bodyfat, being new to lifting and at his stats, it seems to me that Drew should start in a caloric deficit (195 is quite a lot at 5'9). Once he has cut down, he can then start a slow bulk.

 

[mickc1965]

While more info is needed regarding bodyfat, being new to lifting and at his stats, it seems to me that Drew should start in a caloric deficit (195 is quite a lot at 5'9). Once he has cut down, he can then start a slow bulk.

At 19 years of age he should make the most of his raging hormones

 

[adpowah]

While more info is needed regarding bodyfat, being new to lifting and at his stats, it seems to me that Drew should start in a caloric deficit (195 is quite a lot at 5'9). Once he has cut down, he can then start a slow bulk.

193@5'8" checking in. #permabulk!

 

[Drew Whitt]

I sorta feel like I just got called fat. Truthfully the scale puzzles me. No, i'm not the guy with a 6 pack who will take his shirt off at any given chance, but I sure don't feel heavy. @mickc1965 Thank you for your help in regards to diet. I downloaded the myfitnesspal app and plan on starting using it as of tomorrow. I remember you've helped me in the past and I greatly appreciate it.

If it helps at all on whether or not I should be doing a 'caloric deficit' as @Mojo77 mentioned, or follow your advice on caloric intake I can upload a few pictures of myself.

Thanks.

 

[Totentanz]

While more info is needed regarding bodyfat, being new to lifting and at his stats, it seems to me that Drew should start in a caloric deficit (195 is quite a lot at 5'9). Once he has cut down, he can then start a slow bulk.

Rather than place someone into the goal parameters we have set as the ideals in our own minds, I would have the trainee determine whether they would prefer to be leaner or if they want to just build muscle. 195 @ 5'9 isn't terribly fat assuming poor body composition. As he stated he is an athlete, he is likely not morbidly obese. If we wants to be all abs and paper thin skin stretched tight over muscles then a deficit for sure, but if his goal is to build mass rather than be shredded, then a bulk would be in order. While many of us prefer to be below 15% bodyfat, in some cases sub-10% bodyfat, there are some people, believe it or not, who are fine with being in the 13 - 18% bodyfat range as long as they are muscular and strong. You'd be hard pressed to make an argument for that range being a significant contributor to increased risk of heart disease, so it's best to just go with their goals and work with them on it rather than try to alter their goals.

As for slow bulk... slowing down your bulk will slow down your gains for sure. But does that mean better ratio fat to muscle gain? The fat to muscle ratio will be the same at a 250 calorie surplus per day (what most consider a 'slow bulk') as it would be at a 500 calorie surplus per day (what a traditional bulk entails) so as long as he controls calories so his surplus is what it is supposed to be, then he shouldn't have large amounts of excess fat gain. Obviously pushing calories far over a certain point will eventually result in diminishing returns for a natural. But slowing down the bulk does pretty much nothing to optimize p-ratio. Nutrient timing around growth windows would be a far better for reducing unnecessary fat gain above the fat gain you would expect on a bulk.
The only reason that traditional bulking and cutting has such a bad rap is because people don't actually control their calories. They eat "around 500 over maintenance" which when you count everything they ate ends up being 1200 over maintenance, then they wonder why they got so fat. Then they switch to cutting in a panic to cut back the fat without taking any time at maintenance, cut calories too hard and do too much cardio while not lifting heavy enough, watch as they start to get all skinny then psyche themselves out and start bulking again with no time at maintenance to reset, and so and and so on... You can achieve great success with a properly managed bulk followed by a correctly planned cut, with both followed to their conclusions and not terminated early due to psychological problems. At least half of the people I've worked with or tried to help over the years seem incapable of doing this for themselves though, and rather than accept culpability, they determine that bulking doesn't work or that they were doing the wrong routine, or a dozen other possible reasons.

 

[Drew Whitt]

@Totentanz Doing my best to understand everything you said here. Would it make sense in the very long term to eventually switch from this 'bulking' to a cutting sequence? Also, this will show how ignorant I am, you mentioned building mass vs being shredded, what exactly is the difference between these two things, and what will the end results look like? I apologize for asking this because I already know how stupid it will come off to you and the other people who know what they are talking about.

 

[Mojo77]

@Totentanz

You are absolutely right, it is difficult giving advices to people when we do not know their exact states and desires. Very true. By all means, if OP is happy with his appearance and wants to gain mass then a bulk would be just fine. However indeed, if he wishes to be shredded, a cut down first would probably be better.

While a slow bulk might indeed slow down gains, I still believe it is better to minimize fat gains, even when fat to muscle ratio is the same. See if I gain 2 pounds a month, knowing that as a natural my body could gain max 1 pound of muscle, I will have gained 1 pound of fat. Say now, if I gained 4 pounds in a month, my body still is only able to produce 1 pound of muscle, so I know I gained 3 pounds of fat, or three times as much as in the first case! So adding more calories, will not provide me with more muscle, just more fat. So, from a certain point onward, increasing calories will only make you gain more fat. To me, I now strive to search the optimum where I gain the maximum amount of muscle, for the minimum amount of fat. Say, where I gain 1 pound of muscle for 0,5 pounds of fat. Since I do not know my p-ratio, I don't know if it is doable. But it could be, and in that case, any more weight gain will be just fat.
This approach could slow me down greatly, but I do not care if it takes me 5 years to get to my goal I plan to keep on training for the next 50 years!

In the end I think the slow bulk, while granted slow and possible holding back, will give better results compared to the quicker solutions as they will mean more frequent cut downs, which in turn, when not done properly can easily waist all the muscle you have build and just make you spin your wheels.

So all in all I agree with what you have said, still individual parameters need to be monitorred. For myself, I find that 500 over is already way too much and sets me on a road to higher fat gain then needed, gaining up to 1,5% of fat in one single month. 250 over is more than enough and 200 over is probably even better with something between as low as 150 and 200 over to be possibly optimal. I have gained 2,6 kg or 5,8 pounds over the last two months by not eating more then indeed 250kcals over maintenance. But that is just me, someone else can need more calories over maintenance to grow

 

[Mojo77]

@Totentanz

What are your view points regarding nutrient timing around growth windows? What are the do's and don'ts for you to optimize nutrition in this regard?

 

[mickc1965]

I have gained 2,6 kg or 5,8 pounds over the last two months by not eating more then indeed 250kcals over maintenance. But that is just me, someone else can need more calories over maintenance to grow

Technically incorrect, maintenance calories are exactly the amount of calories required to maintain weight regardless of who you are, so 250 kcals over that 'exact' figure will result in exactly 0.5 lbs weight gain per week, no more no less assuming training, diet and macros and everything else in your life do not change but this obviously is in an ideal world, how has your weight increased on a weekly basis? Has it slowed over time?

Calculating your exact maintenance calorie intake is another debate, at the end of the day this is all guesswork and calories need to be adjusted to suit your own goals and as you say once weight gain (or loss) stalls then the figure needs to be readjusted. For me I stick to a body weight multiple and adjust this weekly based on my weight on a Friday morning and whatever my goals are.

 

[mickc1965]

Would it make sense in the very long term to eventually switch from this 'bulking' to a cutting sequence?

Yes as you cannot bulk indefinitely unless you want to get 'fat'

Also, this will show how ignorant I am, you mentioned building mass vs being shredded, what exactly is the difference between these two things, and what will the end results look like

Shredded is when you 'cut' to very low body fat levels (4 - 6% 'ish) like a bodybuilder at competition stage - building mass is what you do when you 'bulk' and how you look will be determined by your body fat levels - you could google images of 'bodybuilders during season and off season'.

 

[Drew Whitt]

Yes as you cannot bulk indefinitely unless you want to get 'fat'



Shredded is when you 'cut' to very low body fat levels (4 - 6% 'ish) like a bodybuilder at competition stage - building mass is what you do when you 'bulk' and how you look will be determined by your body fat levels - you could google images of 'bodybuilders during season and off season'.

Thank you @mickc1965 . Again you are incredibly helpful and I greatly appreciate it. Obviously its a ways out but would it make sense to maybe switch to cutting around January of 2016?

 

[mickc1965]

Thank you @mickc1965 . Again you are incredibly helpful and I greatly appreciate it. Obviously its a ways out but would it make sense to maybe switch to cutting around January of 2016?

Do you intend to bulk for another 24 / 25 weeks or do you have a figure in mind that you will stop bulking at and reduce calories to maintenance level?

The reason for asking is if you slow bulk at 0.5 lb per week you will be sitting around 210 lbs and if 1 lb per week then you will be over 220 lbs etc etc

 

[charr]

I would also say swap as many of your machine exercises as you can to free weights.

 

[Drew Whitt]

@mickc1965 I really have no idea. I honestly have almost no idea what i'm doing. I didnt even know the shredded vs bulk thing. I really am not sure what I want or what to eat or any of this.

@charr I really wish I could. which ones are you referring to, I have no spotter friend and for others im terrified to do so because of my shoulder having dislocated twice previously.

 

[mickc1965]

@mickc1965 I really have no idea. I honestly have almost no idea what i'm doing. I didnt even know the shredded vs bulk thing. I really am not sure what I want or what to eat or any of this.

@Drew Whitt,

You have to make a decision on whether you want to get bigger or leaner, are you happy in your current condition in terms of the amount of fat you currently have, if you are then I would continue to bulk but if you want to cut down on the amount of fat you are carrying then you do need to go on a diet and cut.