Working Out 10-12x a week

kswimbledon

New Member
Hi all, this is my first time posting here, but I've been quietly reading quite a bit for the past few weeks. I've learned quite a bit from these forums, and love how informative and constructive this forum is. It's really a great place.
After learning about HST and researching it quite extensively, I really am ready to go all out with it, starting in about a week and a half. But I need help setting up my routine.
I have searched far and wide on this forum and on google for the best way to work out 6 days a week, twice a day. It appears to be the most effective way to work out if one is able to stay motivated, have proper nutrition, and not get injured. I have taken all this into account and need help answering some questions.
For starters, here are my goals: I want to cut from my current 12ish % bodyfat down to 8-9%. However, I realize this is slightly unrealistic with the routine I want to do, and I honestly want to add mass anyway. So I would ideally love to drop to 10 or 11% bodyfat in this cycle while adding lean muscle (will need ideal nutrition, which I know I can achieve). Also, I really want to develop my upper body moreso than my lower, but want to grow everywhere.

Saying that, here is what I've gathered as a routine for my 6 day a week, 2 a day training.
Every day:
AM-
Squats
Incline Bench
Chins
Military Press
Lying Tri Extensions
Abs

PM-
Deadlifts
Dips
T-Bar Rows
Lateral Raises
Incline Hammer Curls
Abs

So how does this look? I like this routine, and was going to use it, but have been unsure of if it was too much volume. Then I ran across this routine in the "Customizing HST" thread.

Cookie Cutter Routine #1 (Basic Upper Torso Specialization)

Frequency: High to Very high (5x-12x/wk)
Duration: 10 weeks (4 weeks of post-5s)
Post-WO Cardio: optional but recommended. Add during 10s (5-10 minutes HIIT or 20-30 minutes steady state)
SD: 17-21 days.
Diet: A lot. Be very, very aggressive with post-WO carbs if you add cardio. Try out the vinegar. An earlier post offers one hypothetical bulking scheme to approach a program like this. (Hint: 2*BW protein)

Core
Leg Press
Leg Curl
Dip (cluster++)
Deadlift (cluster++)
DB Bent Over Row
DB Incline Press
Pulldown
DB Upright Row

Notes
1) One-two work sets. Second set may be pre-terminated or clustered
2) Add 15s for each movement starting with 5s and post-5s
3) During post-5s, switch to negatives. For items marked with (cluster++), switch to clustering and shoot for an increment per week
4) Extend post-5s for another 2 weeks. Thus would make it a ten week long program.
5) Post-WO cardio

Stretch Point
Incline bench, deep DB fly
DB Skullcrushers
Incline bench, DB bicep curl

Notes
1) One or two work sets
2) Add stretch point movements during 10s
3) Add LS during 5s
4) See notes in previous threads on accentuating stretch
5) Use compound-isolation technique and/or clustering when approaching maxes

Peak Contraction
Pec dec or machine fly
Tricep pushdown or extension machine
Bicep machine

Notes
1) One work set
2) 10-15 Pulses
3) When you feel it's "easier", progress by increasing # of pulses and/or weight


ok, as you can see, that was written up by Vicious (sorry, not very good with the message board thing, don't know how to quote yet). Now, I'm kind of confused by how to do this, choosing to do 10-12x a week.

Should I do the first routine I came up with, or this second one by Vicious? Which will allow me to gain the most lean mass while hopefully cutting bodyfat as well? If this second one is the best, how I do actually put it together into an AM/PM split?

Sorry for so many questions, so much reading to do. But I really appreciate all of y'alls time, and your input into this. Thanks guys!
 
Hi;

just for my information, don't you fear the repeated button effect? So much trainings in a week will certainly make your muscles resistant to the weight? And more if you are doing full body routines twice a day.
Perhaps you should split your muscle group (up & down) for different days. 1st day, work on upper body, 2nd lower.. etc. In this way, you should give more time to recover, and avoid a little bit more resistance to effort.

other advice would be to have with so much workouts a longer strategy for progressive load than starting at 75% of your RMs, in the same way of avoiding RBE. Perhaps starting at 60% should be better. but, as i'm pretty new, maybe i can make a bad interpretation of FAQs...

BR.
matthieu
 
Matthieu, thanks so much for your reply, and I'm not sure. From what I could tell from studying this routine, it seems the suggested thing to do is train full body for both AM/PM splits. But I'll def look into it, as I am just a newbie too and could entirely be misinterpreting the faqs too. Whats the repeated button effect? From reading about the few people that have done it, it seems they had great results but couldnt keep it up for long due to life/fam/work, etc. I wont be having that problem for the next 2 months, so I really wanna go all out with this.

Also for progression, I will definitely be looking to increase by very small increments of weight either per day, or I will start lower, Idk. Could anyone shed any light on this, as well as on my routine in the first post (which one should I pick?)
 
Hi kswimbledon,

Have you ever heard the expression "dont run before you can walk"?

You are new to HST, so, firstly welcome to the board.

While I appreciate that you may well be young, and highly enthusiastic, and I dont know how conditioned you already are, but have you sat and read the basic routine and principles by Bryan thoroughly?

I would really really suggest that you give the basic - 'vanilla' - routine a good run first. To get used to it, and gain an understanding of the principles.
The article you quoted comes from a thread from years ago called 'pimp my HST'. It is just that. A 'pimping' up - modifying in order to continue making progress - of the basics.

Unless you fully understand - and experience, and trial and error, are the best ways - the concepts, you shouldnt, and wont benefit as much, from pimiping up your routine.

There is also a great beginners thread called Simplify and Win. Please read and take note of the content. It is much simpler to get the hang of, rather than rushing in at the deep end, with a routine designed for highly conditioned athletes.
You will make much better gains if you start slowly, but surely.

Just my view, but I have been doing HST for 9 years.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Brix
 
Looks like you’ve done some fantastic research which should help you a lot down the road, but if you are just starting out I agree with the others that you should keep it very simple at first. Stick to basic compound movements - Dead Lift, Squat, Pull/Chin Ups, Rows, Bench, Shoulder Press, etc. . . .

IMO everyone should start with a selection of these lifts and stick with them or some variation of them throughout there training. Reason is these exercise give you the most for the least expenditure of energy and buildup of fatigue meaning you can work out harder and more often with them. They also take time for your body to get use to due to neural adaptations that takes place in all exercise but especially important for compound exercises meaning that a lot of your initial strength gains from them is not new muscle but more efficient use of what you already have.

Once you’ve done these for several months you will have a good foundation from which you can put to use the tweaks you have already researched. It will also give you a better idea of where you need to tweak because your not getting the desired response from the compounds. In the long run this will give you faster gains because you’ll be doing more of what your body really needs to grow rather than using a shotgun approach and just tweaking everything.

As for the 6 day AM/PM spilt if you’re just starting out you’re likely to over-train yourself very quickly, shortchanging your gains. Almost no one here had done a 6 day AM/PM for any length of time. I’m one of the few who does a 6 day AM routine but my lifestyle and body are adapted to years of intense daily exercise (an addiction of sorts), but I wouldn’t recommend it for most people and probably won’t be able to stick with it myself for very much longer as my initial gains start to peter out. As it is now I am in pain almost constantly every day and there is no way I could engage in other intense physical activity w/o very likely injuring myself.
 
Brix and grunt:
Thank you guys so much for your responses and your concerns. I most certainly agree with walking before running, etc etc.

However, I think some background on me could better illuminate why it may be slightly different in my situation:
While I am new to HST, I am definitely not a novice to lifting. I have run many programs, and many different variations. I've done different programs, ranging from Escalated Density Training, to Supersquats (the 20 rep routine sometimes called Squats and Milk) to German Loading Patterns. I've done a program called the Blueprint a few times, and will actually be fitting this HST cycle into a Blueprint program, if that makes sense. Essentially, I've been lifting now for 6 years, and seriously for 2 of them.

However, in January, I caught the flu. It was terrible, and has set me back more than I like to think about. So, for the last couple of months, I've been working my strength back up and trying to gain size as well, working hard but smartly in my preparing to run a serious program. I am not back to where I was at all, but I am on the way, and have been researching HST for a while. I've decided to make it the program I want to put my full time and effort into for the main reason that my main focus is HST now, and because I really like what all the research I've done on it has shown.

Ok, so why I think I am conditioned well enough to do 10-12x a week training: well, I kind of always done this-->
I have been playing tennis seriously since I was 3 years old (now 19), and basketball along with tennis for the last 4 years. Along with this, I've been lifting for the last 6. A typical day for me would involve 2 hours of tennis, 2 hours of basketball, and 45-60 min of lifting. Athletically, I would say I'm conditioned to workout everyday at this high of a frequency. Also, since the end of tennis and basketball, I have not felt the best, and I think part of it can be correlated to my lack of activity: working out 3 times a week may yield great gains, but I want more. I think this aggressive AM/PM split will do wonders for my mood and feeling.

That all being said, I again understand not running headfirst into a new program without first doing a "normal run" of it to get a feel for it. In fact, I have never done this before: I only start variating when I am experienced in a program. So here are the main reasons I really want to do 10-12x a week training:
1. Time: I am in college, and for various reasons, will have the time necessary to be able to workout 10-12x a week. I have never had this time before, and realize that it is very likely that I never will again. I want to take full advantage of it and work my ass off, and do what I may never have the opportunity to do again.
2. I am looking to cut and get really defined as my goal, but a recomp effect would make me even happier. I have my diet down, and for my goals, it seems 10-12x a week is the best.
3. In all my research, it appears that Vicious states in his posts that 10-12x a week is the most optimal way for one to work out, if they can pull it off. From an athletic and mental perspective, I know I can pull it off. I just need help setting it up.
4. I'm 19. I'm young, have a good diet, and am young enough to be stupid enough to try this, but maybe just crazy enough to pull it off as well.

I completely understand where you guys are coming from, and have thought about it many times. But I have come to the conclusion that I have to take advantage of the opportunity that has been handed to me. And if I fail, I will be able to fail with a smile on my face and know that I gave this great opportunity the best that I could.

Again guys, thank you so much for your concern. If my background has helped sway you to realize that I'm definitely dumb enough (but mature enough) to try this insane routine, and recognize I'm going to have to be very smart along the way with it, could you please give me some more advice regarding which workout from the first post I should do, as well as how I should increment weights, etc? All advice is welcome.

Thanks so much!
 
Also, to add to that and answer your questions Brix:

Yes, I read the basic routine by Brian, and that is actually what i was initially planning to use. But then I started to read the Faqs, and found the Faq called "Optimizing HST". Of course, I wanna do everything to the max, and in that Faq, he suggests that training 3x a week, twice a day is the best way to run HST.

I studied that, and it led to Vicious's postings. I studied more, and really liked what was showing up, because I am just the kind of person that would run 10-12x. Heck, I've been unkowingly doing it for the last 4 years of my life. Also, I think I have that addiction you were talking about grunt.

Also, Vicious seemed pretty adamant about 10-12x a week being the best if you could pull it off. I have the time too, possibly for the last time; its something I gotta try.

Thanks again, and sorry for all the reading, just want to cover all the bases and show how committed I am, how much research I've done towards this, and how mentally and physically prepared I am.
 
I sure can’t disagree that working out nearly every day does help the mood and energy levels and your background seems well suited, but just a couple of questions.

How much do you weigh now? What is your body fat % if you know it? What are your max Dead Lift, Squat and Bench Press right now?

The reason your body fat % is important is that you say you want to build muscle mass and cut at the same time. Not likely to happen unless your body fat % is quite high. More likely you will loose both body fat and lean body mass while cutting.
 
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Thanks so much grunt. My weight is 185 and my body fat % roughly around the 12-14% range (calipers say 12, I look at the mirror and would say I'm at the 14ish mark).

I completely understand that this cut will likely end in lost muscle mass alongside the body fat. The reason that I am trying to stick to calling this a recomp moreso than a full on cut is because the last time I "exclusively cut", I went from about 178 to around 158. During that time I lost a good amount of body fat %, but way too much muscle. I was not nearly as educated as I am now, and I have a much better idea of diet. Therefore, I really believe that it is possible for me to eat a maintenance diet, and combine it with this extreme workout to create a caloric defecit that will help me lose body fat while hopefully maintain muscle mass/ with a bit of luck possibly gain a small amount.

Maxes... the flu destroyed them. My bench dropped from 255 to 215 after the flu. After the strong prep work I have put in the last 2 months, I would say its back up to 225, but will stick with 215 to be safe.
Squat- Was 345 (more actually, had perfect form, and couldve gotten another one/added weight, but I dont like risking hernias/ major injuries just for a number). Now, if I had to safely guess I would put my max at 285ish. However, for HST I plan to change from squatting to a little below parallel to ass to the grass squats. I know my knees can handle it and I got the form down. So for the 5s, I will likely be in the 225 area for my sets, maybe a little less.
Deadlift: Have not maxed in forever. I don't know, to be honest. Past 2 months have been high reps.

As for 15 rep maxes, 10s, 5s, etc, I will be finding those out this week.
 
viscous said:
3.2 Specialization Before somebody adds in isolation exercises for specialization, they need to establish that they've been growing with their current HST program. A lot of people, if they haven't seen satisfactory results in their program, add more exercises believing that their body just needs more work. In fact, this can make things worse if they haven't looked at their diet, aren't doing the load progression correctly, or aren't training frequently enough. Specialization and optimization strategies do not solve fundamental flaws in your individual workout design and eating regimen. Specialization exercises are about bringing up lagging or "pet" bodyparts. For a full-body routine, a person establishes a separate between core mass-gain movements and specialization exercises. Including 20 isolation movements in your routine isn't specialization at all; it's effectively substituting your compound/core movements with curls and such to "increase mass." That strategy is logistically and metabolically inefficient, but it's a common move when people port their split routines to full-body. I'm not saying a person should artificially limit the # of auxiliary isolation movements or work within a prescribed exercise range, but like I said before, it represents a conceptual misunderstanding that won't help your results.

1.2.1 Exercise Selection – Sample Process
A person decides he wants to primarily gain mass and doesn't really have a preference for bodypart specialization. In his workout history, he's found that he does squats very well, but his height and limb lengths means that the deadlift causes him problems. Therefore, for his "core routine" he wants to make sure everything important to him is covered, and since he doesn't plan on using the deadlift, he throws in pulling movements at various angles and grip widths. He decides to add hyperback extensions to work his lower back. Say his total routine amount amounts to 6-8 compound exercises (squat, chin, cable row, bent-over row, dips) plus back extensions. Thus, he fulfills issue A and gets adequate coverage from his routine. Then he goes to issue B. Because he isn't really interested in fine specialization, he decides to add more compound movements in order to increase overlap. And, so, he decides to add close-grip bench, military press, and close-grip underhand pulldowns. Then he looks at issue C. Because he didn't any stretch-point exercises and instead choose adding compound movements to increase overlap, he shouldn't look at adding any more isolation movements at all. He's arrived at a 9-execise routine for his selection.
Then he looks at his workout schedule. He realizes he can't train 6x-a-week, but he can do the alternating AM/PM thing and cover summation. He reviews the # of sets per exercise. To do this, he projects how many sets will be viable during 5s. Because he's doing a core routine without extra frequency, from his workout journal, he figures he can do more sets. Judging the bodypart overlap, he decides that he'll shoot for 4 sets of 5s with squats and dips, 3 sets of 5s with rows and chins, and 2 sets for pulldowns and military press. He understands he doesn't have to try to hit 5 full reps per set after the first. From there, he scales back the # of sets for 10s and 15s. For example, he may only do 2 sets of 15s and 3 sets of 10s for squats. If, when performing his routine, he realizes that 3 sets of 10s are more than plenty, then he'll establish that as his "set ceiling" for 5s as well.
Finally, he plans out what intensity techniques to use during post-5s, if to use them at all.

IMO the “cookie cutter” routines listed are just for people to use as examples and not for general use. The whole point of customizing a program is to target specifically what the individual needs making it highly problematic that any “off-the-shelf” routine will give any advantage and likely do more harm than good since it doesn’t take into account the specific needs of the individual.

Since your illness put you off your game I think you will be better served by sticking to compound exercises for your first cycle even if you still plan on a high frequency workout regime. However, be aware that while cutting it is best to skip the low weight metabolic work like the 15s and stick with heavy weights and lower than normal volume. In effect the goal is to go defensive and try to minimize loss of lean body mass while loosing fat and maintaining strength.

Personally I wouldn’t even recommend that you cut right now unless there is some very good reason for it, like contest prep. At 14 % body fat you can get in at least one good bulking cycle before even considering cutting. That would serve to give you a good baseline from which to customize your own personal routine based on how your body responds to vanilla HST.

Again doesn’t mean you can’t work out every day or even twice a day, but while cutting this will likely hurt you a lot more than it may help. And if you do choose to cut then you’ll be much better off sticking to heavy compound exercises to spare as much lean body mass as possible.
 
Interesting with cutting out the 15s, etc...
Ok, so i will be going with option 1, with the basic compound movements. Thank you.
Now, please correct me if I misinterpreted you, but essentially you're saying the smartest thing to do would be to bulk (assuming I go thru with the 12x a wk training)?

The reason I want to cut is none other than that I gain weight/ fat quite easily, and I enjoy being lean (living near a beach makes you want to do that). In the grand scheme of things, I would honestly prefer to cut down to about 8% body fat, and then focus on a recomp diet for the rest of my lifting career/life, looking to slowly add lean muscle and never get above 10% body fat.

I really thought the smart thing would be to do a full on cut with this, and then embark on lean bulking. However, I have lost a bit of mass from the flu, so much so that my mom said I had looked the smallest she had seen me since high school (awful feeling... and a good sign that a lean bulk may be in the cards for me).

I could focus on lean bulking right now, especially if working out twice a day would really kill that much muscle on a cut.

So, if I were to still cut on this, would I need to cut out the 15s? What else would I have to do?

And if I were to bulk, what would be the best way for me to ensure as much muscle gain with as little fat gain, if none at all?

Being lean is a huge deal to me, as you can probably see, but I really do need to add a bit more mass. I will definitely do the bulking if its possible for me to add a signicant amount of lean muscle with minimal fat gain.

So, summing up... what would I have to do to effectively cut with this routine? and if I bulk (looking much more likely), how do I make it as lean as possible? Cardio? What kind of diet should I follow, Maintenance + 500 each day (like 2500 cals total) ?

Thanks so much again grunt, I really appreciate you digging those quotes up, and putting so much time into helping me.
 
Thanks so much again grunt, I really appreciate you digging those quotes up, and putting so much time into helping me.
No problem. There is a huge amount of information here, which can almost be overwhelming. It’s a pleasure to try and help someone out who’s already done so much homework on the subject rather than asking questions that are already in the FAQs. Plus I didn’t have to do that much since I went through the same exact process as you wanting to do everything all at once. The guys here, especially Fausto’s “Simplify and Win!” thread got me onto a better track.

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?16246-Simplify-and-Win!

Now, please correct me if I misinterpreted you, but essentially you're saying the smartest thing to do would be to bulk (assuming I go thru with the 12x a wk training)?
At 14% BF I would bulk regardless of what workout frequency you choose.

The reason I want to cut is none other than that I gain weight/ fat quite easily, and I enjoy being lean (living near a beach makes you want to do that). In the grand scheme of things, I would honestly prefer to cut down to about 8% body fat, and then focus on a recomp diet for the rest of my lifting career/life, looking to slowly add lean muscle and never get above 10% body fat.
I sympathize. I’ve been lean, hell skinny almost all my life so sitting here around 12-13% BF right now feels uncomfortable but this is HST and Hypertrophy is all about getting bigger. Unless you are a freak of nature or taking drugs the odds of getting a lot bigger w/o adding any BF is next to none. You might want to start checking out “Lean Gains” if you haven’t already. Might be more info to help you there:

http://www.leangains.com/

Note that the lower your BF% the more likely you’ll lose muscle when cutting. Not sure what the weather is like where you are but if there are on/off beach season you may want to organize your bulking/cutting cycles to coincide with the seasons. Not saying you can gain muscle mass w/o getting fatter but it’s going to be very hard and very slow.

So, if I were to still cut on this, would I need to cut out the 15s? What else would I have to do?
Best to research cutting here on the forums. Not trying to brush you off but I haven’t done a cut yet to I lack the in depth knowledge that others have already shared. I probably won’t cut until I get at least above 15% BF and probably actually closer to 20% so I haven’t researched it much myself. Just going by what I’ve been reading recently in other posts.

So, summing up... what would I have to do to effectively cut with this routine? and if I bulk (looking much more likely), how do I make it as lean as possible? Cardio? What kind of diet should I follow, Maintenance + 500 each day (like 2500 cals total)
If you are 185 lbs I don’t think 2500 cals is going to be 500 over maintenance. I’m only 166 and 2300-2800/day is maintenance +500 for me depending on if I work, or workout that day.

Counting calories and knowing exactly what you’re daily needs are (taking into account varying activity levels) is the best way not to gain to much fat but you will gain some fat with muscle, it’s inevitable. Nutrient partitioning is what it is and as a natural lifter you can only hope to tweak it a little in your favour. I would also stick to compound exercises, even when bulking. Adding vanilla cardio while only mean you need more calories to grow, and will keep your cardio fitness up. Some HIIT followed by some slower steady state cardio may help you burn more fat but you still need to eat more than you use to grow, especially as your BF% gets lower.
 
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Ok, that definitely makes sense, and I'm studying different ways that I could lean bulk (looking at calorie cycling/carb cycling now), and will likely attempt a bulk with this. I will also stick with the compounds, for sure.
That being said, heres a question: In what increments should I increase weight from day to day? It seems like the increments will have to be very small considering I'm working out everyday?
 
The basic plan has increments increasing 3 times a week but sometimes they have to be repeated and even zig-zag (dropping lower and coming back up again) so there is no need to increment daily. If you increased your weights once every 2 days that would be 3 times a week and still fit with the standard progression.

RBE will not be a factor if you repeat the same weight 2 days in a row as long as you are increasing regularly. Generally about 10 lbs / increase for the biggest lifts and 5 lbs for the smaller ones.
 
Thank you so much grunt, again. I believe I am well prepared to really take this workout on with my best. All thats left for me to do is some soul searching to decide whether I want to cut, bulk, or attempt both through carb cycling and possibly IF. Any further tips are greatly welcomed and appreciated.
 
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