You know what...

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imported_drpierredebs

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I get real angry when I start seeing all the boneheads in the gym overnight explode into mini-arnolds. These knuckleheads do arm curls, incorrectly I might add, bench press, tricep cable extensions and then start shooting up juice and ..bam... muscles everywhere.
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75% of them never set barbell on their traps and squatted.
 
I know Doc! It is very frustrating. Still, they usually lack a certain amount of symmetry (rubbish leg development) unless they actually do some leg work.

I used to think that to get big you just had to train hard and consistently for a number of years (I blame the bb mags and Dr. Darden for claiming in his Nautilus books that AAS doesn't do much for muscle growth!). Now I know better, it has taken the edge off my desire. However, I still love to train. It is now a personal challenge to try to keep on improving, even if it's just a little bit. Thanks to HST I feel that I will be able to improve more than I had thought and remain completely drug free. Can't complain about that.
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Dear drpierredebs:

You shouldn't get angry really.
These guys maybe get very big very quickly, and you feel this isn't "fair", but they will have to keep using them steroids to stay big, and they will eventually suffer from the consequences.
(I believe not being able to have sex is one of the expected results of long-term steroids use, but I'm really not sure because it's been so long since I've read articles about steroids, maybe 15 years or so...)

So if you get angry because you think this isn't "fair", just think of the downside of using steroids, and you will realize it is probably fair afterall.
 
I know what you mean.

I read a study one time in Menshealth that said that steroids increase your progress 12 fold.

So in other words take a regular guy who busts his @ss for 12 months and make gains.

Then take a guy on juice and he can have those same gains in 1 month...and I believe it too its not BS from my personal expierence seeing guys do it.

I know I have been lifting since I was 11 years...3/4 of those were extremely serious...now I haven't always ate enough to grow like I should all those years but still I have always worked out and worked out hard. Took Creatine and watched the bad foods...And I am 6 foot 190 at 12%....I see guys get those type of results in 6 months or less on the juice.

Its very frustrating.

I have never done the juice and never will b/c its illegal.....but boy the first day it becomes legal...you will see me waiting in line.
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Its a free world and there are a lot of choices out there to be made. I've taken a fair bit of recreational drugs when I was younger but now I'm a Dad I have left that behind me. I've also quit smoking in January.
I wouldn't want to go that far and then replace one (possibly) negative thing with another so I am natural.
I am curious to see how far I can take that, I am only 36 so we'll see.
As for others, live and let live. The gains are quick but so is the loss and you cant put on much muscle when you're dead.
Just my 2.3689p
J
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What gets me is how generally weak guys who juice are. While some tend to have impressive numbers in the bench, most bodybuilders I see are weak. But, that could just be because that is the day I see them train.

I had to train at a 24 hour fitness last week and there was a guy who was pretty big (arms 18+) working his back doing cable rows and pulldowns. He was grunting and grimacing as if he was moving weight heavy for him. I looked and it was not more than 25% of the weight rack. Pretty pathetic.

I have to think he is finished bulking and is just refining. The heavy lifting is done or he does it on another day. I just can't see how lifting what I consider light weight can even maintain such massive amounts of LBM.
 
I am not angry, angry- people can do as they want with their own bodies.
It is just dishearting for all of us who are natural and have to work very hard for small gains in certain body parts, or in general , the average genetic guy who busts his butt to do some good for his body, himself and his family by making himself healthier so he can live longer and play with his kids and toss his wife around the bed.

I smoke and drank with the best of them for 20 years. I am one of the lucky one´s , I quick everything before it killed me. Now I ride bikes uphill on steep mountains in the alps.

My shoulders need almost superhuman workouts to grow and some clown walks in the other day with bowling ball shoulders-three weeks prior he had pingpongballs for shoulders. It is just annoying. On the other hand, If enough people just stand around my legs , they grow,  
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so I got that one up on many in my gym. I had to stop going heavy on the squats to stop them from growing.
 
I hear you about legs, I'm the same way. My only "genetics" are legs and upper back. From the back I look much bigger. People never ask me how much I bench, they ask what I squat or deadlift, how's that for being the odd man out? Who the hell asks that?

As far as shoulders, at this rate I'll have to OH press 315 to have a decent set.

We had a short guy at the gym who juiced for a few months and his upper body got HUGE, arms at least 17 ripped. He still lifted like a girl though, DB bench presses with 65's, 65's for goodness sakes. Of course his legs were like a 10 year old girl's.

I don't get angry either, but you'd expect a guy weighing 220 who is fairly lean should be moving some impressive weight. I have big legs and upper back because I busted my hump deadlifting up to 500 pounds, and some of these 220-240 pound juicers would be lucky to pull 315.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't get angry either, but you'd expect a guy weighing 220 who is fairly lean should be moving some impressive weight.</div>
Does that not suggest that what appears to be solid mass is in fact a lot of retained fluid too? Or it may be that they just don't try that hard because they don't have to?

Where I now train I get asked if I'm training to be a powerlifter. I guess because so few people seem to train heavy. It is always going to be disheartening seeing folks with better development lifting namby pamby weights but I think the effort you are willing to put into your training carries over into other walks of life. It's a sign of your character.
 
Well I guess evolutionarily speaking, those of use with &quot;Talented&quot; leg and back genetics (My back is a strong point as well), can run and jump faster than those genetically less gifted. This makes its more likely that we can catch the hot girl running from our advances and show her the fruits we could grab from high up in the trees that we had to jump up to grab.!
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I get the power lifting question too as I only do Squats, Bench, Rows, Standing Press, and deads.
 
While it might be true that the severe side-effects and long-term dammage from steroids use, are actually caused by steroids abuse, it is probably not that easy to use them without abusing them.

Not only that it might be hard to use steroids without abusing them, but it is probably also hard to know in advance whether you can or can't master them (probably a weird choise of words, but you know what I mean).
So better stay clean in the first place.
 
Steroids are evil and dangerous, which is why Arnold died in his early 20s from a steroid overdose.


I know what it's like being frustrated with slower progress than the juicers have, or even the genetically advantaged. I know a kid who is quite large, not even 18. He's lean and he has never touched drugs. He sucks. He doesn't even have to work out responsibly. The bastard.
 
Ok so here's a question:

Obviously there are guys juicing througout the year etc and Joe mentioned that a juicer can make 12 months gains in 1 month.

So what are the thoughts on a 1 month juice and then natural from there on in? Are the side effects negligible over that amount of time? Would seem like a hell of a head start for some guys.
 
Good question Neebone?

To follow that question I always wonder this.

We know fat cant be turned into muscle...and muscle can not turn into fat...old bodybuilding myths.

That being said if muscle doesnt turn to fat...then were the heck does it go for steroid user who when they do get off a cycle they shrink up?

Were does the muscle go...I mean I can understand maybe some atrophy..but I know guys who are like 220 ripped on the juice and when they get off they weigh 175?

Were does it all go?

I was just tongue in cheek with the I will be first in line comment earlier...but I personally IMO Steroids prob are not that bad for you as long as you do moderation.

Hell taken tylenol everyday can be bad for you.
 
hey joemuscle
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have never done the juice and never will b/c its illegal.....but boy the first day it becomes legal...you will see me waiting in line.</div>

what must you us guys pay when the police is busting you with steroids ?
something not to do because of its illegalicy is ok but when it goes about steroids the first thing to think about is your health ! and not if it is illegal or not. so i cant understand your opinion
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I've taken anabolics at one time in the past. I took Winstrol while cutting last year. Obviously I didn't make any size gains while on it, since I was cutting, but I was able to cut down by about 15-20 lbs without losing any muscle or strength. Does that make me a cheater? I don't really care. Did it ruin my health? No. My blood pressure, pulse, etc are all excellent. My cholesterol is great. Overall, my health is better than it was a year or so ago.

I really don't see why they are illegal. The police say it's because they don't want &quot;the kids&quot; getting them. In the countries where these drugs are legal, is it really that big of a problem with &quot;the kids&quot; abusing steroids? Not as far as I know. You don't see teenagers in Mexico breaking world records.

So yeah, I think the whole &quot;steroids will kill you&quot; thing is way overplayed. Obviously they can harm you if used improperly, especially orals which can really screw up your cholesterol and your liver, but making these illegal so guys can only get them (and info on how to use them) on the black market is only going to make any health risks worse.
You'd have to be an idiot not to get bloodwork done while on cycle. Gee, you know if they were no longer illegal, maybe guys could actually talk to their doctors about what they are doing instead of having to ask people online to help them out???

Are they addictive? No. Maybe the psychological thing, but I'm not popping Winstrols constantly because I'm addicted, and I haven't used anything aside from the Winstrol since last year.


Bottom line: Don't believe 90% of the stuff you read about steroids. They aren't something magical and they aren't something that will kill you the first time you inject. Most of the horror stories about them are either urban myths or morons trying to blame all their problems on a drug instead of owning up and taking responsibility for themselves.
 
Tot - you make very good points. However, I think its the mentality of people that would stop them being legal.

Its like driving. In Germany on the Autobahn they can go as fast as they want and their accident rate is low. In the UK our accident rate is high even with a 70mph limit. If you removed that limit tomorrow everyone and their aunt would want to speed just because they weren't able to do it before and you'd have mayhem. Speed doesnt kill - idiots do.

I guess it would be the same with steroids. You can do them safely but if you want to abuse them then yes, they CAN be dangerous.

I'd probably try them/it/one if a) they were legal and b) if I could get them easy enough. But they're not and I cant so I wont. Though if others want to thats cool. I'm not going to judge either way.

I'd still like to know about the gain loss after coming off them like Joe asked.
 
Choco re read my post above...I said it was tongue in cheek
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Tot has a great point thougth.

I am not advocating steroids b/c I am sure they can be BAD FOR YOU...but so is fast food.

Take an obese person...for example....would they be better off doing gasteric bypass surgery, were you are literally doing about the same thing as stapling there mouth shut.

Or would they be better off before they got that far out of shape to be monitored closely by a team of physcians, weight training routine and some anabolics?

I know its and extreme example...but hell so is having your stomach stapled.
 
I can never read any of chocos posts- they are always blank.

BTW-there are speed limits on the autobahn, not everywhere, but the do exist and there are lots of them.
 
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