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Jens
01-06-2005, 05:59 AM
Hi!

I have been reading a lot about HIIT training.
High intensity interval training.
A brief 15 min workout consisting of intervals will increase growth hormone levels, testosterone levels, and fat burning
processes will start. And all of this without increasing catabolic levels, cortisol, like longer cardio workout (20 min+) will do!
In a study people who did this kind of interval training dropped their bodyfat 5% without altering their food intake.
I want to build more muscles with HST, and lose fat with HIIT.
Because of all the benefits of HIIT, testosterone, growth hormone etc. I think HIIT can actually aid in building muscles.
The best example I can possibly think of right now is to look at the sprinters in the olympics like Maurice Greene and all of those buff guys, and compare them to the long distance runners.
I read in a study that it is the hormone benefits of interval training that makes sprinters able to combine well developed muscle mass with low bodyfat.

I am planning on doing HIIT two-three times per week. 15 min.
As long as I keep up my food intake and protein intake, I think this may work!

BIZ
01-06-2005, 10:30 AM
Should definitely help you drop some bodyfat, or at least keep it in check when trying to bulk up a bit.

Jens
01-06-2005, 11:42 AM
Hi Biz!

Thanks for the reply!
Yes, I did one session of HIIT earlier today, I only did ten minutes! After that I was so exhausted I had to lay down in the middle of the track. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
My mouth tasted blood! It was very tough.
But that´s how I like it! http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

yshemesh
01-06-2005, 12:11 PM
you like it tough ?! *takes off sweatshirt*

BoSox
01-06-2005, 12:27 PM
hey Biz (or anyone),

is there much of a difference (hormonally, fat-burning, muscle-building-wise) between either just eating eating less (while bulking) and doing no cardio OR just eating a TON and doing HIIT or other cardio to burn the extra calories?


Lets say you need 3500 kcal to bulk... does it matter if you just take in 3500 kcal, or if you take in 4000 and burn 500 doing HIIT or other cardio?

vicious
01-06-2005, 12:36 PM
Quote[/b] ]is there much of a difference (hormonally, fat-burning, muscle-building-wise) between either just eating eating less (while bulking) and doing no cardio OR just eating a TON and doing HIIT or other cardio to burn the extra calories?

Yup. Studies show that you burn more visceral fat (the one you want to burn) with the latter example than the former (which burns more subcateneous fat.) HIIT has a muscle sparing effect as well.


Quote[/b] ]I am planning on doing HIIT two-three times per week. 15 min.
As long as I keep up my food intake and protein intake, I think this may work!

On HST, it's best to start HIIT fairly low in order to avoid RBE. If you're targetting eventually for 15 min, you start with say 5 minutes. Also you choose a machine (or swimming) that works the full-body (avoid bikes unless you plan to delay HIIT until the end of 10s) and preferably with a limited range of motion. If you want to do HIIT sprint, wait until the middle of 10s.

I recommend something like a Versaclimber. Arguably the most evil cardio machine in the world, AND it doesn't overwork the quads.

cheers,
Jules

vicious
01-06-2005, 12:38 PM
Quote[/b] ]is there much of a difference (hormonally, fat-burning, muscle-building-wise) between either just eating eating less (while bulking) and doing no cardio OR just eating a TON and doing HIIT or other cardio to burn the extra calories?
Yup. Studies show that you burn more visceral fat (the one you want to burn) with the latter example than the former (which burns more subcateneous fat.) HIIT has a muscle sparing effect as well.

Quote[/b] ]I am planning on doing HIIT two-three times per week. 15 min.
As long as I keep up my food intake and protein intake, I think this may work!
On HST, it's best to start HIIT fairly low in order to avoid RBE. If you're targetting eventually for 15 min, you start with say 5 minutes. Also you choose a machine (or swimming) that works the full-body (avoid bikes unless you plan to delay HIIT until the end of 10s) and preferably with a limited range of motion. If you want to do HIIT sprint, wait until the middle of 10s.
I recommend something like a Versaclimber. Arguably the most evil cardio machine in the world, AND it doesn't overwork the quads.
cheers,
Jules

BoSox
01-06-2005, 01:41 PM
I thought the fat we wanted to burn was sub-q fat. Isn't that the kind that is covering my stomach?

vicious
01-06-2005, 02:54 PM
Eek. I meant HIIT burnt more subcutaneous fat. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

cheers,
Jules

Jens
01-06-2005, 03:01 PM
Hi!

How can I reach repeated bout effect from sprinting?
I understand that the legs are getting a lot of work, but that doesn´t concern me, because my legs are already way ahead of the rest of the body.
Will any other muscles suffer from RBE because of HIIT sprinting?
Running doesn´t work any other muscles than the legs, so I won´t reach RBE sooner with my upperbody, right?
I do understand that the bike is a bad choice, becuase of the quad work, but running must be better?

Nemesis7884
01-06-2005, 03:16 PM
usually hiit is best done in the morning before bf

what if the only time you could do cardio is after your hst workout in the evening? would then a moderate cardio session get the score?

vicious
01-06-2005, 03:23 PM
Quote[/b] ]I do understand that the bike is a bad choice, becuase of the quad work, but running must be better?

If legs aren't a big priority, then by all means start sprinting. I'd still work up slowly to 15 minutes, though. Understand that lifting the big movements, by virtue of it being anaerobic exercise, is a form of HIIT too.


Quote[/b] ]Will any other muscles suffer from RBE because of HIIT sprinting?

Perhaps abs. Rest of non-leg parts would have minor effect. Sure don't have a Versaclimber around? http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]usually hiit is best done in the morning before bf

Actually I kind of feel HIIT (or cardio in general) on an empty stomach isn't really a good thing. Of course, you still want to do cardio as early as possible.


Quote[/b] ]what if the only time you could do cardio is after your hst workout in the evening? would then a moderate cardio session get the score?

I think a moderate cardio session would be more effective. After all, you're going to sleep only a few hours after it.

cheers,
Jules

zoomz
01-06-2005, 04:42 PM
If one has the choice either 15minutes HIIT or 30minutes at 60% ? I have been doing 30minutes at 60% taking Bryans advice. From my take it seemed the HIIT burned much more calories, which is good, but there was an issue with losing muscle .

Jens
01-06-2005, 04:53 PM
Hi!

Thanks vicious! Great reply!
Yeah, you´re right about the big exercises.
Squats and deadlifts are really, really exhausting. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

What does the deadlift train?
Of course the back, especially lower back.
But what other muscles are hit? Some legs too obviously.

vicious
01-06-2005, 05:39 PM
Quote[/b] ]From my take it seemed the HIIT burned much more calories, which is good, but there was an issue with losing muscle .

It's actually the other way around. Regular cardio burns more calories initially and is more likely to burn muscle. HIIT stimulates metabolism and lipogenesis(?) much better and can stimulate some muscle growth, but it burns less calories initially. HIIT improves glycogen upload, nutrient absorption, overall releases less cortisol, and improves one's endurance during repeated bouts of tantric love making. However, it also pushes up RBE and can be hell on a keto diet or CKD.


Quote[/b] ]What does the deadlift train?
Of course the back, especially lower back.
But what other muscles are hit? Some legs too obviously.

Extremely underappreciated as an arms exercise. Extremely underrated as an abs exercise. Traps, biceps, some part of the delts, middle back, forearms, grip strength, abs, facial muscles, hair muscles, teeth muscles, zit muscles. . . Stiff-leg also works hams, calves and helps you freak-a-leak. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The deadlizzle is da shizzle fo' yo bizzle. Learn the over-under grip and alternate between sessions.

cheers,
Jules

BoSox
01-06-2005, 06:37 PM
in case accidental extended cardio, ie. basketball games, car broken down in the middle of nowhere etc., does anything help prevent muscle breakdown? Protein, carbs, both?

Pauly
01-06-2005, 06:42 PM
Quote[/b] (vicious @ Jan. 06 2005,10:39)]HIIT stimulates metabolism and lipogenesis(?)
I hope not, that kind of defeats the object! http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif

Would be much better if it stimulated lipolysis! http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

vicious
01-06-2005, 07:08 PM
Doh!! Uhm . . . I'm not a smart man, but I know what HIIT is. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif HIIT burn fat. HIIT make you Brad Pitt skinny!!! HIIT good!! http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

cheers,
Jules

Tom Treutlein
01-07-2005, 02:50 AM
I'd also like to know the answer to BoSox's question. If there is an unavoidable form of cardio, how should one compensate and prevent muscle loss?

vicious
01-07-2005, 03:21 PM
Quote[/b] ]If there is an unavoidable form of cardio, how should one compensate and prevent muscle loss?

Any form of significant exercise will cause a rise in protein synthesis. Just compensate with food, mostly carbs to refuel glycogen, then a steady increase in protein. Continuous cardio beyond an hour (i.e. cross country) is a different issue.

cheers,
Jules

BIZ
01-07-2005, 04:32 PM
Just as Jules alluded too, many people forget that some post workout carbs and protein is okay after a really strenuous HIIT session, especially if you are worried about muscle wasting at all. At the least, it will calm your worries, at best it will help keep muscles full and slow down or reverse any catabolism that may occur from the HIIT (which I don't see happening unless you are starving yourself).

vicious
01-07-2005, 04:45 PM
HIIT could be very catabolic on an empty stomach. Without any readily available glycogen, the adrenal glands will have to work much harder and release even more cortisol. Makes just as much sense as lifting heavy on an empty stomach.

cheers,
Jules

Tom Treutlein
01-07-2005, 08:03 PM
Besides that, I'm sure you'll feel like ####, trying to sprint or lift heavy without fuel in the tank.

vicious
01-07-2005, 08:26 PM
Indeed. It sucks. It really, really sucks. And afterwards, you feel awful.

cheers,
Jules

VIPER
01-07-2005, 08:54 PM
Normally before training with the goal being fat loss or weight gain I take in 15-20g of of protein and 30g or so of carbs. When doing HIIT on non-training days would the same pre-workout snack be fine, or do I need to change it a tad to maximize the benefits of HIIT?

Nemesis7884
01-08-2005, 01:06 PM
the things i read until now say hiit has a less catabolic effect then the normal form of cardio...so to sum up

hiit is best done in the morning before breakfast because hiit will increase fat metabolism for the day

moderate cardio is betther done in the evening because it is not that exhausting...


Quote[/b] ]does anything help prevent muscle breakdown? Protein, carbs, both?

well a calorie surpluss is always anabolic...after workout the carb intake helps to prevent gluconeogenesis and frequent protein intake is protein sparing in generall

chunky34
01-09-2005, 07:20 PM
Quote[/b] (Nemesis7884 @ Jan. 08 2005,1:06)]the things i read until now say hiit has a less catabolic effect then the normal form of cardio...so to sum up
hiit is best done in the morning before breakfast because hiit will increase fat metabolism for the day
moderate cardio is betther done in the evening because it is not that exhausting...
I would say quite the opposite :

HIIT is best done with a preworkout and postworkout meal. HIIT should be consider as a weight trianing session. Intensive HIIT session increase level of cortisol, which cause muscle lost.

However, low intensity cardio can be done in the morning before breakfast, or after a weight training session. Keep the total time of exercise pretty low (about 20-30 min max) and dont increase intensity past your 70% of your max and muscle lost will not be a problem, and you'll burn fat.

vicious
01-09-2005, 07:35 PM
I agree with Chunky's advice. It's really important that you at least have some protein before you go into a HIIT session. HIIT will have a lower catabolic effect if the pre-WO nutritional meal is taken care of.

cheers,
Jules

Heavy Duty dude
01-11-2005, 12:06 PM
Quote[/b] (vicious @ Jan. 06 2005,2:54)]Eek. I meant HIIT burnt more subcutaneous fat. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
cheers,
Jules
Could you elaborate a bit on that? Is subcutaneous fat the same as reserve fat? Is it the fat right under the skin or what?

thanks. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

vicious
01-11-2005, 03:38 PM
Quote[/b] ]Is subcutaneous fat the same as reserve fat? Is it the fat right under the skin or what?



Subcatenous fat is the fat under your skin -- that's the spare tire fat. Visceral fat is the padding around your organs. Normal dieting is indiscriminate about which fat to burn. HIIT burns mostly subcateneous fat; that's what you want.

cheers,
Jules

VIPER
01-11-2005, 04:54 PM
Vicious, have there been any studies on the difference in subcutaneous fat reduction comparing intense cardio (like HIIT) vs. moderate cardio with keeping muscle mass in mind.

I've looked over some articles regarding this on different sites. Some are decent, and some aren't so informative. Most of the stuff is just trial and error, "it worked for me" type stuff.

Falco
01-11-2005, 05:03 PM
Quote[/b] (chunky34 @ Jan. 09 2005,7:20)]HIIT is best done with a preworkout and postworkout meal. HIIT should be consider as a weight trianing session. Intensive HIIT session increase level of cortisol, which cause muscle lost.
Living proof here.

I was taking a spinning class 2x/week during my fat loss and really not eating very much at all. The fat flew off, but I hit a point (around 11-12%) where I started losing muscle - my weight went down but bf % creeped up! http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/butbut.gif

BTW - I'm still going to continue to spin during my little hyper-caloric HST experiment here. I'll be sure to share my experiences.

vicious
01-11-2005, 07:35 PM
Quote[/b] ]Vicious, have there been any studies on the difference in subcutaneous fat reduction comparing intense cardio (like HIIT) vs. moderate cardio with keeping muscle mass in mind.

It should favor HIIT, but the difference is probably negligible. The problem is compounded in that many of us already supplement our cardio with weightlifting. Thus you already get some kind of a muscle-sparing effect. Thus you already create some kind of the metabolic boost. I think Lyle suggested that HIIT's benefits may come from it spiking the adrenal glands; problem is, so does a heavy set of squats. What additional value does HIIT have over the moderate cardio, then, after a weightlifting session?

That being said, HIIT wins by default for me. If moderate cardio and HIIT essentially burn the same calories per day, we know that moderate cardio eats up more glycogen (and more muscle), provides little extra protein synthesis by way of erk1//2 activation, only offers so much in the way of endurance adaptation, etc.

Aaron or Pauly probably has a definitive answer for this, though.

cheers,
Jules

skinnyman
01-31-2005, 05:31 AM
i've been doing HIIT just to get rid of the unwanted fats. i've been doing it only for 5 minutes because after that, i'm really exhausted. i take in pre and post meals when on HIIT. 46g of protein before and about 100g of carbs and 20g of protein after. that's okay right? i won't lose muscle? http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

KAAJ
01-31-2005, 09:02 AM
Do I get this right;

HIIT is best when bulking, not while dieting? (It isn't a part of UD2.0)

One should not do HIIT around the time at the day when you're training weights?

If one do moderat cardio straight after lifting weights, one would get the same effect as only doing HIIT?

Jeffro11821
01-31-2005, 09:58 AM
OK, I feel that perhaps this question is too basic to even include in this thread, but I'm guessing some other newbies such as myself may be wondering this same thing.

If I am reading this thread correctly, you guys are already doing cardio post workout on 'lifting' days and are talking about the idea of doing HIIT on the mornings of 'lifting' days. Is this correct?

Well, again, I'm a newbie, but I've thought that HST suggested that you do the moderate cardio (or HIIT as we are discussing here) on NON-Training days?

So, that being said, do you guys do cardio 6 days a week? Or do you do cardio/lifting on the same days and totally take the others off? Just trying to get an idea of how you all are fitting your cardio in.

Thx,
-j

Jake
01-31-2005, 10:53 AM
Jeffro-

I think it will depend on your goals as to how you work cardio in, but let me share with you my moitivation for doing some form of cardio 6 days/week. I do HIIT (stationary cycling: 20 minutes, 5min warmup and cooldown, and 10 bouts of 30sec sprint/30sec baseline) after lifting during 15s and 10s- I don't have much left after 5s, so I don't do any cardio on those lifting days. Besides, given that I do drops during the 5s, one could argue that I'm doing HIIT then anyway. I do moderate cardio (NordicTrack skiing: 50 minutes) on my off days. I take one day of rest per week.

The motivation? HIIT keeps the subcu fat at bay and enhances my V02- good for situations like when the elevators at work break and I have to jog up 7 flgiths of steps http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . The moderate cardio hits more of the visceral fat (often a problem in us old geezers, especially the guys), but also provides a sustained cardio workout to keep my endurance level fairly high (good for when I take 15-20 mile hikes with my wife and kids). It also provides documented benefit in keeping your lipid profile in good shape (there's not enough evidence yet to show that HIIT has a beneficial effect on HDL, which is why I don't rely on it as my sole means of cardio).

I've been using this schedule for a couple of years, and I've been very happy with my growth (which is still happening, BTW- even after almost 3 years on HST). Does this much cardio cut into my potential gains? Perhaps, but at 55, I have to trade off on gains vs. cardiovascular fitness (including V02 as well as lipid management).

Anyway, that's just my story- I know others in here have their own!

Jake

Jeffro11821
01-31-2005, 01:16 PM
Hey Jake,

Thanks for the time & info! It was very interesting to read about what you are diong and even more importantly, the reasoning behind it.

I had never really read about HIIT before I read this thread, sounds very interesting, I've been reading about it for almost 3 hours now :-)

Also, awesome to hear that you are still gaining, I established my maxes in early January and yeterday was my last day of SD before my first cycle. I hope it goes well..

Anyhow, thanks!
-jeff

Jake
01-31-2005, 10:25 PM
Anytime, Jeff, and good luck!
Jake

skinnyman
05-27-2005, 10:49 PM
will doing HIIT on off days require you to eat as much as when you're doing HST? help!! i am so confused. my brain is aching!! http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif