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soflsun
09-05-2007, 04:35 PM
Hello All,

I've been working out since March on a pretty routine 4-day split of Back/Chest, Legs, Shoulders, Arms. *Since I previously lifted about 5 years ago, much of my strength and size has been re-gained. *I am 29, 5'10" 190 lbs...12% BF. *Although this workout has been successful for me, I am attempting my first HST cycle, of which this evening will be my 5th workout in the 15's mesocycle.

3x per week - 1x per day
All exercise seperated by / are super sets

Chins/ Incline Bench
Bent-over rows/ Dips
Shoulder press/ Calf raise (on a leg press machine)
BB Curls/ Skulls
Squats/ Leg Curls
Shrugs/ Rear delt raises

I plan on completing 15x2, 10x2, 5x3, Negs/MS.

Observations/Comments thus far:

1) Must admit that I did not SD before beginning
2) It is difficult to 15 reps of any exercise when you are used to doing no more than 8 reps ever
3) It is difficult to finish the routine in less than 70 min
4) Wrist and shoulder seem to bother me more from higher reps than heavier weight
5) Dips hurt my hands (the pressure on my palms)
6) I have a weak grip
7) I am trying not to zig-zag by repeating certain weights for 2 workouts or decresing the incremental change
8) I have a chronic crick in my neck from lifting that never seems to friggin go away (developed before HST)
9) I am not getting sore at all (this concerns me)
10) I don't feel like I am getting as good of a workout as when I split my body parts
11) I am cutting as well...my carbs are largely limited to pre and post workout shakes

Weights Used 15's:

Chins - Assisted machine to enable me to complete 15x2...Started at plate 9 decreasing to 6
Incline Bench BB - 75 lbs to 125 lbs
Bent-over rows - 85 lbs to 125 lbs
Dips - BW (no belt)
Shoulder press DB's - Combined 60 lbs to 90 lbs
Calf raises - 180 lbs to 260 lbs
BB curls - 45 lbs to 65 lbs
Skulls - 30 lbs to 60 lbs (deep stretch behind head)
Squat - 95 lbs to 175 lbs (first time doing squats without Smith Machine)
Leg Curls - Every machine is different, but increasing every workout
Shrugs - 140 lbs to 200 lbs.
Rear-delt raises (incline bench) - 15 lbs to 20 lbs (not much room for increase here at 15 reps)

All comments welcome...look forward to contributing all of my experiences to the forum!

BAX67
09-05-2007, 09:22 PM
I'm new to the forum too, but have been reading it for the past couple of weeks. Looks like your doing to many exercises. Check out "simplify and win" . Basic compound exercises with big results!

TunnelRat
09-05-2007, 09:36 PM
<div>
(BAX67 @ Sep. 05 2007,21:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I&#39;m new to the forum too, but have been reading it for the past couple of weeks. Looks like your doing to many exercises. Check out &quot;simplify and win&quot; . Basic compound exercises with big results&#33;</div>
Hmmm, the Force is strong with this one... http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/tommcnaughton/smilies/DarthVader.gif

soflsun
09-05-2007, 10:19 PM
Simplify and win is geared more toward increasing overall mass. I am interested in more of a complete workout targeting large and small muscle groups, with an increased emphasis on burning calories (cutting) while building and toning. I would consider breaking the routine into 2 parts, morning and evening, as an alternative though. After reading many threads here, simplify and win is definitely not the only path to success. Thanks for your comment though.

soflsun
09-05-2007, 10:30 PM
9/5

5th Day of 15&#39;s Mesocycle * 2x15
Chins (6th plate)/Incline bench 115 lbs
Bent-over rows 115 lbs/Dips BW
Shoulder Press 90 lbs combined/Calf 250 lbs
Curls 60 lbs (13x1, 5x1, 10x1, 5x1)/Skulls 60 lbs
Squat 165 lbs (winded)/Leg curls 80 lbs
Shrugs 200 lbs/Rear delt raises 25 lbs (standing)

The high volume and increased load of the 15&#39;s is getting to me&#33; *Looking forward to the 10&#39;s. *Very winded from this workout, took 90 minutes to complete...too long.

imported_fearfactory
09-05-2007, 10:33 PM
I would agree that 15&#39;s are not the most fun. *I&#39;m sorry to hear that your shoulders and wrists are complaining.

your exercise selection looks pretty good to me. *I &quot;like&quot; deads...but they&#39;re not exactly something that can superset w/ squats&#33;

how much of an incline is your bench set at?


edited to ask: what exercises hurt your wrists? BB curls kill mine.

soflsun
09-05-2007, 10:50 PM
Thanks fear...I&#39;m pretty happy with the exercise selection. *I use a standard olympic incline bench (the only variable that can be manipulated is the seat height), I believe the incline is 40-45 degrees. *Definitely doesn&#39;t feel like it hits my pecs as well as a standard flat bench, but I&#39;m going with the consensus here...so I made the switch. *To be honest, my wrists hurt more after the workout and the next day...when I originally injured my right wrist about 4 months ago I couldn&#39;t even wipe my ass without intense pain. *The problem is the joint at the base of the thumb and the part of the wrist directly under it. *Any pressure on that part of my hand (like pressing on a bannister while walking up the stairs) still hurts pretty bad though. *It&#39;s my own fault...I was doing cable curls with a really weird handle (It was like a thick roller that spun as you lifted the weight) and it didn&#39;t agree with me, but I pushed through the pain of the sets and the rest is history. *I still don&#39;t know why I didn&#39;t stop...anyway I really never gave it more than a full week to heal so its still bothersome, hopefully not permanent damage.

BAX67
09-05-2007, 11:18 PM
soflsun, It was out of line for me to comment on your workout. I&#39;m sorry about that&#33; Good luck, hope your aches heal up soon.

soflsun
09-05-2007, 11:28 PM
No sweat Bax...Thanks.

soflsun
09-07-2007, 02:58 AM
Me now...dry:

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5324/picez3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

soflsun
09-08-2007, 10:41 PM
Last day of 15&#39;s Workout #6 2x15

9/7

Chins 6th plate/Incline BB press 125 lbs
Bent-over BB rows 125 lbs/Dips BW
Seated DB shoulder press 90 lbs combined/Calf 270 lbs
BB curls 65 lbs/Skulls 60 lbs

9/8

Squat 175 lbs/Leg curls 95 lbs
Shrugs 210 lbs/Rear-delt raises 25 lbs (standing)
I threw in a set 1x45 of weighted ab curls at the end of the workout for the first time also

I needed to finish my last 4 exercises on a seperate day, it was just too much on the last day of the 15&#39;s. *I did some clustering on the curls and skulls to finish the desired reps: I hope I didn&#39;t go too heavy too fast. *There was some definite swinging on the last reps of the rear-delt raises. *Also, my grip was giving out on the the last several reps on both sets of rows. *All of the exercises were difficult to finish the sets, which I was happy with because I estimated my max weights pretty good. *The squats really beat the crap out of me...175 lbs for 2x15 left me sweating profusely and winded for quite some time. *Any suggestions why this is so difficult for me? *I&#39;m nervous about what the heavier weights are going to be like http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Totentanz
09-08-2007, 11:10 PM
Probably because high rep squats are hard. Heh. Seriously, I&#39;d rather do 3x5 with my 5 RM than do 2x15 with my 15 RM.

Lol
09-09-2007, 10:57 AM
Yeah, 15s for squats and deads hit your cardio fitness a bit more than the other rep ranges. It will improve each cycle if you keep it up. (I&#39;m one of those sad individuals who love the challenge of 15s for deads and squats.) However, as you are cutting and because you have trained for a while AND you didn&#39;t SD, I would have recommended that you went straight to 10s and skipped 15s altogether. What you are trying to do during a cut is maintain your hard earned muscle as much as possible. Using the lighter loads of the 15s is not the best way to do this if you are on reduced calories.

Don&#39;t be nervous about the heavier stuff, like Totz has said, most prefer the 5s. You will find them difficult but easier metabolically speaking&#33; http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Judging by your pic, you have some really good genetics and some good size already. Plus, your bodyfat doesn&#39;t look very high to me. How much are you trying to cut and what are your hypertrophy goals?

As far as grip strength goes, there are various things you can do to improve it. Check out this thread for lots of tips:
Grip Strength (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin/ib314/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=13379)

I really used to get frustrated when my grip failed before the end of a set of deads, chins or rows. It is no longer a problem, however, I still use lifting straps for my heaviest deads and shrugs unless I am doing singles. It&#39;s just one less thing to worry about.

soflsun
09-09-2007, 01:28 PM
Yeah, I probably should have skipped 15&#39;s based on what you mentioned, but I really did like (for the most part) doing exercises for higher reps than I ever did before. *The weight was light, but the workout was still good. *I don&#39;t think I lost and size or strength from doing 15&#39;s, probably just maintained though...and added some endurance maybe.

I have some really junky calipers, and it says my BF is at about 11-12.7...so difficult to get a consistent reading. **Any advice on a good device*

I&#39;d like to get to 9-10% and keep my weight at 190 lbs, so my lean mass would be increasing to make up the difference. *I want more definition, and hypertrohy wise I&#39;m not really sure because I don&#39;t know what my current measurements are. *I need to get a tape measure too.

I read the grip strength thread, and will now start to incorporate some of these exercises on my off days. *I will need to get some grippers and my gym doesn&#39;t have that rolling apparatus I don&#39;t think. *I&#39;ll do some static holds and hangs in the meantime. *I&#39;ll report my numbers after tonight&#39;s workout. *Don&#39;t expect too much from someone who has difficulty with 15 reps of 125 lbs BB rows http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

soflsun
09-11-2007, 02:58 AM
9/10

Week 3 Workout #7 *2x10

BB incline bench 135 lbs/Chins 5th plate
BB Rows 135 lbs/BB flat bench 155 lbs
Calf raise 290 lbs/DB shoulder press 100 lbs
BB curls 70 lbs/Skulls 70 lbs

I need to finish my squats, leg curls, shrugs, and rear-delt raises tomorrow.

Observations:

1. *I switched dips for BB flat bench because I think they were irritating my shoulders and since I don&#39;t have a weight belt, I cannot do anything more than BW.
2. *In an effort not to zig-zag, my weights are too heavy on curls, skulls, and BB rows. *These will become impossible to continue in the coming days...what should I do?
3. Need to start splitting the routine to 3x/week, 2x/day. *Too much for 1 workout. *I&#39;m not sure how I&#39;m going to split it up yet though.

soflsun
09-11-2007, 01:38 PM
9/11

Contiuation of workout #7 2x10

Squats 185 lbs/Leg curls 100 lbs
Shrugs 220 lbs/Rear-delt raises 20 lbs (incline bench)

Squats felt good, but the weight feels heavy on my traps...I&#39;m not used to free-standing squats so it&#39;s a little scary for me. *I did one extra set of 8 after my 2x10. *Dropped the weight on my rear-delt raises back down to 20 lbs because I did them on an incline bech instead of standing (no cheating).

markobenin
09-11-2007, 02:25 PM
Instead of doing so many exercises and having to result to twice a day for 3x a week, why not just cut down the number of exercises to one compound per body part and then if you want you can up the volume to like 3x10 instead of the current 2x10 to accommodate for the current surplus of exercises. I&#39;m not sure how wise this would be to do in the middle of your current cycle...but definitely something worth thinking about for your next one. You could and should drop the iso&#39;s now though if you feel they&#39;re getting to be too much, and just stick to the compound lifts.

Just my opinion...maybe somebody else can chime in as I&#39;m kind of a newbie myself and just a few workouts ahead of you in my 1st HST cycle. I&#39;m just suggesting these modifications as my routine is working wonderfully for me now. Cheers&#33;

-Marko

soflsun
09-13-2007, 01:49 AM
9/12

Week 3 Workout #8 *2x10

I think I found a better order of exercises that until I break my routine into 2x/day seems to work better although it is still too long...

BB incline bench 145 lbs/Chins 5th Plate
Squats 185 lbs/Leg curls 100 lbs
BB flat bench 165 lbs/BB rows 135 lbs
Calf raises 290 lbs/DB seated shoulder press 100 lbs
BB curls 70 lbs/Skulls 70 lbs
Shrugs 220 lbs/Rear-delt raises (standing) 25 lbs

Felt pretty good, shoulders seems to be irritating me a bit less without the dips. *I think I may be increasing weights a a bit to quickly...may need to stay at same weight for several workouts. *It&#39;s my first cycle so I&#39;m learning. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

soflsun
09-13-2007, 01:52 AM
Marko,

Good thoughts, good options. I don&#39;t feel like making such a significant change in the middle of this cycle, but I think those are great options for my 2nd HST. Thanks for the input. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

soflsun
09-14-2007, 05:13 PM
9/14

Week 3 Workout #9 *2x10

Chins (4th plate)/BB incline bench 150 lbs
Squats 205 lbs/Leg curls 105 lbs
Calf raises 320 lbs/BB flat bench 175 lbs
BB rows 145 lbs/DB shoulder press 110 lbs
BB curls 70 lbs/Skulls 70 lbs

I cut out shrugs and rear-delt raises today, workout was getting too long. *I increased my weight on every exercise this workout except in curls and skulls. *I think since the compounds are getting heavier, I don&#39;t hve the extra juice to increase the weight on those isolations. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif * I nearly went to failure on my last set of flat bench, but it was OK. *The rows are feeling very heavy as well...are Pendelay&#39;s easier?? *I need to really watch my increases over the last 3 workouts of 10&#39;s to make sure I don&#39;t reach failure on the exercises.

imported_fearfactory
09-15-2007, 06:20 PM
nice work&#33; looking forward to your posts on grip strength. ever get around to static holds?

UFGatorDude30
09-17-2007, 11:44 AM
I like Pendlays over standard bent over rows because, like deads, you are setting the weight back down on the ground. For those of us with messed up, or weak lower backs, this is great because you don&#39;t waste a lot of energy holding up the weight in between reps. A lot of people don&#39;t like them because they can feel awkward at first, and may even seem harder... but after half a cycle of doing them I fell in love with them.

Also, is there a certain reason you don&#39;t like zigzag? That isn&#39;t a condescending question but I just feel like there is this bad aura around it that makes people not like it. Some of my best strength gains, and certainly my best hypertrophy gains in recent times came when I implemented it into my routine.

soflsun
09-18-2007, 08:13 PM
Hey UF,

Since my reps change throughout each mesocycle, I just thought it would be better to have 1 less varaiable and make sure that the weight progressed (or at least never decreased) each workout. *Other than that, I don&#39;t have anything against zigzaging...why do you think your most strength and hypertrophy occured while during a zigzag setup?

fear,

Never really messed with the static holds, but my #1 COC&#39;s should be here by Monday so the grip trainig will begin then. Thanks.

soflsun
09-18-2007, 08:23 PM
9/18

Week 4 Workout *#10 2x10

Pull-ups (4th plate) *I do these palms facing away with a wider-than shoulder width*/BB Incline bench 155 lbs
Squats 205 lbs/Leg curls 105 lbs
Calf raises (Leg press machine) 320 lbs/Standing calf raises 160 lbs
20 min rest
BB rows 145 lbs/BB flat bench 185 lbs
DB shoulder press 110 lbs
BB curls 75 lbs/Skulls 70 lbs
Rear-delt raises 25 lbs/Shrugs 230 lbs

Everything feels pretty heavy at this point. Rows, curls, and shoulder press being the most difficult. I had to cluster the last couple of reps on the 2nd set of shoulder press and on curls I needed three mini sets to finish the last 10 reps. Rows are beating me up at this point...I tried to do them without straps today so I think my grip was taking some strength away from the actual movement. I need to increase my weight in skulls by next workout, I have kept the same weight for 4 workouts I think&#33;

How bad is it if I am reaching NEAR failure on my last reps??? If the reps are EXTREMELY slow and difficult to complete, will this hinder my HST...it&#39;s only happening on a couple of exercises though.

_tim
09-19-2007, 09:15 AM
I&#39;m not sure where in your cycle you are, but getting to NEAR failure is part of the game for the later parts of the cycle for each rep range. So, when you get to the upper limits of your 15&#39;s, if you&#39;re not nearing failure, your loads are probably set too low. BUT - if you&#39;re still early on in your cycle (or rep range), there&#39;s a possibility that you&#39;re overreaching a bit. If that&#39;s the case, don&#39;t worry about it - I&#39;d guess everyone on this board has done it before.

Heck, I know in my first cycle I had to reset at least twice. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Regardless, your numbers and progression look good.

soflsun
09-21-2007, 02:14 AM
9/20

Week 4 Workout *#11 2x10

Chins BW (neutral grip)/BB incline bench 155 lbs
Squats 215 lbs/Leg curls 110 lbs
Calf raises 340 lbs/BB flat bench 185 lbs
BB rows 145 lbs/DB shoulder press 120 lbs
BB curls 75 lbs/Skulls 80 lbs

Felt like a good workout. *Pretty much finished 2x10 of all sets without any clustering other than BB curls, and it was pretty slow going toward the end of the squats but I finished them. *Tried a neutral grip for chins today and increased the weight to BW without any assist (not sure how much I liked these to be honest, but the ROM is much greater than wide-grip pulls). *Skulls ended up being 2x9...couldn&#39;t get the last rep on either set. *

Just an FYI: *My strength seems to be increasing, but my weight is decreasing and my BF is staying the same. *So...I am losing muscle, and I feel like it shows in the mirror&#33; NOT GOOD&#33;

TunnelRat
09-21-2007, 09:54 AM
<div>
(soflsun @ Sep. 18 2007,20:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Since my reps change throughout each mesocycle, I just thought it would be better to have 1 less varaiable and make sure that the weight progressed (or at least never decreased) each workout. Other than that, I don&#39;t have anything against zigzaging...why do you think your most strength and hypertrophy occured while during a zigzag setup?</div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST builds strength sure enough, however, the actual manifestation of that strength depends on the recovery of the CNS (and other neuromuscular factors) from workout to workout. Sometimes a person will gain a little ground on their CNS recovery and their strength output will go up. Those who zigzag are more likely to experience significant &quot;strength&quot; gains mid cycle.</div>

soflsun
09-21-2007, 02:55 PM
Well, its confirmed&#33; *I have a weaker grip than a girl...and I mean a girly girl. *I can&#39;t even come close to clicking the COC #1 with either hand, actually I can hardly move them more than 1 inch. *I wasted my money for sure&#33; *According to the directions, it wouldn&#39;t be smart for grip strength or hand health to use a gripper than is this difficult for me. *Plus, I have nothing for a warm-up. * Anyone, want to sell a used pair of Trainers? *I probably won&#39;t be able to move them either...

soflsun
09-22-2007, 07:52 PM
9/22

Week 4 Workout *#12 * Last Day 10&#39;s

Chins BW (neutral grip)/BB incline bench 165 lbs
Squats 215 lbs/Leg curls 110 lbs
Calf raises 340 lbs/BB flat bench 185 lbs
BB rows 155 lbs/DB shoulder press 120 lbs
BB curls 75 lbs/Skulls 80 lbs (1x9)
Shrugs 230 lbs/DB rear-delt raises (incline bench) 20 lbs

Tough workout&#33; *Even though my weights didn&#39;t increase much or at all on many exercises, this was definitely tougher than my last workout. *I had to cluster the the last couple of reps on many sets, and felt overall weak and a bit burned out. *I think because the last workout was challenging, I may have needed an extra day of recovery&#33; *The workout was also very long, 90 minutes or so. *I can&#39;t lie...I am starting to miss my old split body routine. *It was a quicker workout and gave my body more time to heal: *I&#39;m not convinced that 48 hours or less is enough time between grueling workouts.

soflsun
09-27-2007, 01:27 PM
9/26

Week 5 Workout #13 First day of 5&#39;s (but it wasn&#39;t)

Chins BW+25/Dips BW+25 *10x3 superset
Leg press 360 lbs/DB shoulder press 120 lbs 3x10 superset
BB curls 85 lbs 10x3

So I changed alot this workout, and took an extra couple days of rest&#33; *Dropped 7 exercises and changed the rep shemes, but still hit a full-body workout. *I dropped all iso&#39;s except for curls, and substitued squats for leg presses just to give my body a feel at somethig else (I still plan on squats being the focus of my quad workout though). *I enjoyed the 10 sets of 3 scheme (10x3), and it did allow my to drastically increase my weights while keeping the reps high. *I did 30 reps with all of my exercises (either 10x3 or 3x10). *It was nice to get out of the gym in less than an hour for a change. *Also, I have been training my grip on off days with the COC #1&#39;s and I can almost get a click with both hands http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I will most likely tweak this a bit more. *I want a minimum of 6-7 exercises but I&#39;n not sure of the breakdown yet. *This is still in line with my HST cycle since I am increasing my loads, not going to failure, and staying at sub-max poundages. The reps schemes ae different, but that doesn&#39;t really matter since many members keep volume constant anyway, and cluster when the sets become to difficult.

_tim
09-27-2007, 01:55 PM
I&#39;m so glad to see you changing things up a bit soflsun. Do what YOU feel to be the right thing for YOU. You know the basic principles of HST, and you&#39;re doing a good job of keeping your program in line with HST. Just keep going, and apply more when you learn more.

Best of luck with the tweaks&#33;

TunnelRat
09-27-2007, 03:06 PM
<div>
(soflsun @ Sep. 27 2007,13:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, I have been training my grip on off days with the COC #1&#39;s and I can almost get a click with both hands </div>
Let us know when you can click the #1 COC, and we&#39;ll let you use the men&#39;s room again... http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

soflsun
09-27-2007, 04:24 PM
<div>
(TunnelRat @ Sep. 27 2007,15:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let us know when you can click the #1 COC, and we&#39;ll let you use the men&#39;s room again... *http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif</div>
Thanks for the encouragement tim, and Tunnel it will be nice to be allowed to pee standing again. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

soflsun
09-28-2007, 11:41 PM
9/28

Week 5 Workout #14 (Should be 3x5)

Squats 225 lbs/DB shoulder press 140 lbs 10x3
Smith flat bench 195 lbs 4x5/Smith rows 155 lbs 3x10

It was too much after the 10x3 shoulders to do a BB flat bench...need to revise. *I kinda missed my iso&#39;s http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

soflsun
10-01-2007, 04:59 AM
9/30

Week 5 Workout #15

BB decline bench 225 lbs 10x3-4
Chins BW 3x8
BB military press 95 lbs 3x8
Seated calf raises 125 lbs 4x6
Various curls 12x2-3

Couldn&#39;t do squats or deads becasue my lower back is really sore...not sure why, maybe bad form on my rows last workout? *Military press was a joke after doing heavy sets of bench, need to figure out how to break up shoulders and chest and still maintain a full-body workout&#33;

RUSS
10-01-2007, 10:11 AM
There is a definite conditioning factor to low rep/high set routines , you could trim back to 8x3&#39;s at first and still be moving a significantly higher total load. The first week using 10x3&#39;s for the first time can be rough , but the body adapts it&#39;s conditioning pretty quick and it gets easier fast.

* * * * * * * * * I&#39;ve found chest supported rows to be a great &quot;fit&quot; in terms of real world lowerback strain and recovery from deads. I roll the bar under my bench (set flat), place a pillow on it for extra padding and tend to be more on my abdomen then my chest (go figure) , I take a breathe and tighten everything before each pull and deload completely in between each rep. At first it was a little uncomfortable (the front torso pressure) but in no time at all my front &quot;toughened up&quot; and it all came together so that now it feels quite natural. The benefits are that lower back is taken out to a GREAT degree , and that form is &quot;forced to be perfect&quot; , because of the perfect 90 degree angle and inability to cheat in any way these are Hella effective. Kind of like a pendlay but without ANY strain on lower back . To improve bench pull with your hands , to get maximal back hypertrophy pull with elbows (mentally - you know what I mean) Of course if you work out in a gym , they have chest support row machines but no pillow&#33;



* * * * * * * * * * Since you are using a higher number of movements , (10x3&#39;s are usually associated with more abbreviated routines) you may consider approaching chest and shoulders from the alternating heavy/light point of view . example:

* * * * * a) chest 10x3
* * * * * * * shoulders 2x12

* * * * * *b) shoulders 10x3
* * * * * * * * chest 2x12

* * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * In fact you may resolve most of your concerns by utilizing a 2x12 as a contrast to the 10(or 8)x3 whenever dealing with overlapping movements, good to see you giving it a go , hope something from this helps. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

TunnelRat
10-01-2007, 06:08 PM
<div>
(RUSS @ Oct. 01 2007,10:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I&#39;ve found chest supported rows to be a great &quot;fit&quot; in terms of real world lowerback strain and recovery from deads. I roll the bar under my bench (set flat), place a pillow on it for extra padding and tend to be more on my abdomen then my chest (go figure) , I take a breathe and tighten everything before each pull and deload completely in between each rep. At first it was a little uncomfortable (the front torso pressure) but in no time at all my front &quot;toughened up&quot; and it all came together so that now it feels quite natural. The benefits are that lower back is taken out to a GREAT degree , and that form is &quot;forced to be perfect&quot; , because of the perfect 90 degree angle and inability to cheat in any way these are Hella effective. Kind of like a pendlay but without ANY strain on lower back .
</div>
Yup, when I&#39;m doing a standard HST routine, I like to do a Lying Dumbbell Row in lieu of a Bent Over Row. I find that my lower back takes a pretty good beating already from my squats and deads.

Lying on a bench takes the lower back out of the equation and lets me concentrate on the misery in my upper back.

soflsun
10-01-2007, 08:22 PM
Russ,

Thanks for the input. *How are you able to get a full extension using a flat bench? *Doesn&#39;t the floor get in the way? *Sounds great though. *I didn&#39;t thik that 5 exercises was too much for the 10x3 routine...I will definitely do a lighter load/higher reps with either shoulders or chest depending on the workout, but I&#39;m wondering if I even need a straight delt exercise with heavy chest. *I noticed that Westbury leaves them out in several of his full-body workouts.

I&#39;m gonna definitely give it a go Tunnel. *Thanks much&#33;

RUSS
10-02-2007, 09:00 AM
<div>
(soflsun @ Oct. 01 2007,19:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> How are you able to get a full extension using a flat bench? Doesn&#39;t the floor get in the way? </div>


I am not able to get full ROM using my bench for CS rows , I personally think the ROM is enough , when coupled with the above mentioned benefits to make them my second most important back movement (after deads). What I do though in my case to address this , is to keep regular BB rows in my routines (usually alternated with deads from back w/o to back w/o).

Example:

mon- push
tues- deads
CS rows
upright rows

thurs- push
fri- CS rows
BB rows
upright rows


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I&#39;m wondering if I even need a straight delt exercise with heavy chest. I noticed that Westbury leaves them out in several of his full-body workouts.
</div>


IMHO upright rows &quot;fit&quot; better with flat and or incline than military press in terms of having enough &quot;ooomph&quot; left until conditioning is capable of military after an 8-10x3 of one or even two benching movements. You will need some side delt stimulation , front and back are hit just fine between presses ,rows and deads. This is a case where an &quot;iso&quot; , perhaps side delt raises , makes sense(to me). http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

TunnelRat
10-02-2007, 01:17 PM
<div>
(RUSS @ Oct. 02 2007,09:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(soflsun @ Oct. 01 2007,19:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> How are you able to get a full extension using a flat bench? Doesn&#39;t the floor get in the way? </div>
I am not able to get full ROM using my bench for CS rows</div>
Whereas I just put the flat bench up on blocks such that I have to stre-e-e-e-etch my arms to reach the dumbbells...