HST and Eat/Stop/Eat

**Ironkid** · 07-31-2012, 05:02 AM

Any good reading on fasting?

I'll have to reread Lyle 's keto diet book again

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**Blade** · 08-01-2012, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Ironkid

Does glucogeogenesis burn muscle? I thought ketosis was muscle sparing because glucogeogenesis will feed primarily from fatty acids....

I'm puzzled now

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Like I said - the leaner you are, the less fat you have to supply energy and ketones to cover basal needs, and labile and contractile amino acids become a more attractive target to supply energy. Another issue is glucose managing and insulin kinetics, I don’t have the study references at hand and too lazy to go look for them, but longer fasts mess with the way your body handles calories (carbs in particular). This is why many experience a "crash" after their first meal breaking the fast, they get sleepy and lethargic and turn on the parasympathetic branch of the ANS - which normally doesn’t happen with shorter fasts and smaller protein+fat meals. The latter imitating a lot of the fasting effects we are after (increased fat burning, autophagy) while avoiding most of the side-effects of longer fasts (muscle loss, glucose handling).

**Mule86** · 08-01-2012, 08:13 AM

I appreciate the information. I will admit that I am new to fasting of any kind. I just began this fast a few weeks back. So far I've liked the results that I have gotten out of the 24 hour fast two days a week. My goal was to cut weight/body fat and I feel like I have accomplished that goal so far. I don't feel like I am losing any strength as I have still been progressively overloading my HST routine and completing my reps/sets.

I was under the impression that it was iperative to incorporate three days of weight training when you are fasting at all, be it 16 or 24 hour fasts. This would encourage your body to not ''burn muscle'' when you are in your fasting state because the body would realize that it would need to keep the muscle around for those workouts. I've been going by that theory and lifting heavier to try to combat any possiblity of muscle loss. Really my ultimate goal is to keep the muscle I have and lose body fat % to ''appear'' more muscular when in fact I haven't really built any new mucsle, just lost some fat %.

I haven't really delved into the science of it, other than reading up on E/S/E and Intermittent Fasting. Again, everything I've read I thought said that they were both good diets and would accomplish almost the exact same thing and choosing one would be more of a lifestyle fit than anything. I like the flexibility of the 24 hour fast more than the IF schedule. Right now it's working for me so I'll stick with it at least until the end of my current HST cycle (5 weeks.)

**misev** · 08-01-2012, 08:44 AM

If you have just started with weight training/HST then you can not accurately say if you're not losing muscle mass on this E/S/E, because of the beginner's effect where you'll gain 'strength' primarily due to neural adaptations.

**Mule86** · 08-01-2012, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by misev

If you have just started with weight training/HST then you can not accurately say if you're not losing muscle mass on this E/S/E, because of the beginner's effect where you'll gain 'strength' primarily due to neural adaptations.

I have been on HST for two years and lifting heavily for over 10. I played college football and increasted my weight/mass considerably when I played. I've now got it back down to where I want it. I can tell/feel if and when I am losing mass or strength.

**Mule86** · 08-03-2012, 09:43 AM

From a Martin Berkhan article:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/diet-tip...-loss-plateau/

"Your metabolism doesn’t scavenge amino acids from your muscles after an overnight fast. Fatty acid metabolism is highly up-regulated, but muscle catabolism doesn’t occur in short-term fasting for up to 24 hours. If you’re still paranoid about this (I am), make sure to eat some slowly absorbed protein before bed, such as cottage cheese, egg white protein or meat with veggies (the extra fiber will slow absorption as meat is generally considered a “fast” protein). Another thing to keep in mind is the very slow absorption rate of whole food proteins. We’re talking a few grams per hour, which means that a mixed meal with 40-50 grams of protein will maintain a steady level of amino acids in your bloodstream well through the night and into the next day. The belief that a few hours without food will cause muscle catabolism is absurd."

Looks to me that Martin doesn't believe you will lose muscle in a 24 hour fast.

**misev** · 08-03-2012, 11:18 AM

I'd rather do some proper research, than believe the first random guy on the internet.
Anyway, I don't know why are you analyzing all this to such details if it works for you.

**Mule86** · 08-03-2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by misev

I'd rather do some proper research, than believe the first random guy on the internet.
Anyway, I don't know why are you analyzing all this to such details if it works for you.

Martin Berkhan is the author and developer of Lean Gains Intermittent Fasting, which is a 16/8 fasting schedule that you claim is better than the E/S/E fasting program. He's far from some random guy on the internet.

It is working for me, thanks.

**Blade** · 08-04-2012, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mule86

Martin Berkhan is the author and developer of Lean Gains Intermittent Fasting, which is a 16/8 fasting schedule that you claim is better than the E/S/E fasting program. He's far from some random guy on the internet.

It is working for me, thanks.

If it’s working then that’s great and I’m very happy for you. I don’t see the point in asking for opinion or advice, though. I will say this - the people following fasting protocols just seem to have this "flat" and stringy look to them when they get very lean. That’s obviously impossible to avoid completely when trying to get very lean without any pharmaceutical enhancement, but just noticeably moreso than with non-fasting diets. I also base this on my own experiences with well into the thousand of clients throughout my 15+ years of coaching experience

so take it for what it’s worth YMMV.

If that’s a look you find attractive, then it’s perfect, obviously. For a more flexible way of eating, for anti-aging purposes and/or for someone with a lot of fat to lose, a fasting approach is great, though.

**Mule86** · 08-06-2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Blade

If it’s working then that’s great and I’m very happy for you. I don’t see the point in asking for opinion or advice, though. I will say this - the people following fasting protocols just seem to have this "flat" and stringy look to them when they get very lean. That’s obviously impossible to avoid completely when trying to get very lean without any pharmaceutical enhancement, but just noticeably moreso than with non-fasting diets. I also base this on my own experiences with well into the thousand of clients throughout my 15+ years of coaching experience

so take it for what it’s worth YMMV.

If that’s a look you find attractive, then it’s perfect, obviously. For a more flexible way of eating, for anti-aging purposes and/or for someone with a lot of fat to lose, a fasting approach is great, though.

I'm not really trying to question your experience. I started this thread to be more of a journal of my experience with E/S/E. I wasn't starting it to look for validation that this is the superior way or only way to achieve my goals. I know that there are many options out there that work differently for people. So far this is working for me and I like the simplicity of it. I don't think I look deflated and I actually feel like I am increasing my strength while simultaneously losing some weight. I've weighed everywhere from 195 to 230 over the past 10 years. I've bulked and lifted extremely heavy and I've leaned out. Right now I'm looking at keeping my strength while cutting some body fat and gaining more definition. I have a pretty good feel on how my body feels after being lean/big/lean again.