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Thread: HST and Eat/Stop/Eat

  1. #11
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    Sure it would make sense to do it indefinitely. If you can make it work for bulking, there is really no reason not to do it. I don't think you will avoid all fat gains but you can definitely minimize it compared to a traditional bulking diet. It just makes sense to concentrate your calories during the time when your body is building more protein.

    The first con (for me anyway) is that it can be difficult to work around schedules. My work schedule varies so much that some weeks I can strictly adhere to it and other weeks I cannot. Also some weeks I can lift religiously and some weeks I work so damn many hours that I cannot lift much if at all.

    The other con is that for larger individuals, it is difficult to get enough calories in the eating window. I currently weigh 240 lbs, due to my weight and my high activity level, I have to eat a minimum of 5000 calories a day to gain weight, which is very hard to do within the eating window. There is another bigger guy here, Brixtonian, who has attempted an IF bulk and couldn't do it for the same reason.

    If you only need 3000 or fewer calories a day to bulk and you can work it around your daily life, then I believe it would work great. I also believe that IF is better for overall health compared to a traditional diet but the evidence behind this is not yet rock solid.
    PRs:

    Squat - 485 lbs
    Bench - 315 lbs
    Deadlift - 635 lbs
    Total - 1435 lbs
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totentanz View Post
    Sure it would make sense to do it indefinitely. If you can make it work for bulking, there is really no reason not to do it. I don't think you will avoid all fat gains but you can definitely minimize it compared to a traditional bulking diet. It just makes sense to concentrate your calories during the time when your body is building more protein.

    The first con (for me anyway) is that it can be difficult to work around schedules. My work schedule varies so much that some weeks I can strictly adhere to it and other weeks I cannot. Also some weeks I can lift religiously and some weeks I work so damn many hours that I cannot lift much if at all.

    The other con is that for larger individuals, it is difficult to get enough calories in the eating window. I currently weigh 240 lbs, due to my weight and my high activity level, I have to eat a minimum of 5000 calories a day to gain weight, which is very hard to do within the eating window. There is another bigger guy here, Brixtonian, who has attempted an IF bulk and couldn't do it for the same reason.

    If you only need 3000 or fewer calories a day to bulk and you can work it around your daily life, then I believe it would work great. I also believe that IF is better for overall health compared to a traditional diet but the evidence behind this is not yet rock solid.
    Thanks totentanz, really helpful. I'm actually 210 pounds but have a sedentary job so I'll try after the summer. My goal now is to get to 13-14% which will be difficult since i never went below 16. On other note, i do prefer the IF approach, i do enjoy the large night feast and not carrying containers all day ;-)

    Should anyone be interested, I'll keep you posted


    Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2
    Last edited by Ironkid; 07-06-2012 at 08:12 PM.
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  3. #13
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    Hi,

    Sorry - I intended to get in on this thread earlier (work and family get in the way!)
    I found the following info re IF (cant remember where - and apologies if it sounds a bit disjointed?) I hope it helps re macros etc.......


    "These calorie figures are just a guide to help you calculate your macros. We’ve already recognized that these calorie numbers may be a little low to be taken literally because of the simplified rules.

    ‘Body-Recomposition’: Martin himself refers to a +20%kCal and -20%kCal rule for T-Days and R-Days respectively.
    So if you came out with 2000kCal from your calculation, then make a T-Day 2400kCal and R-Day 1600kCal.

    ‘Cutting’: You need to be lower than this so as to create a weekly energy deficit. Even so, you must eat a surplus of calories on a training day in most situations*.
    Your numbers might look something like 2200kCal and 1300kCal. (+10%/-30~35%kCal)
    (*Obese/Very fat people are at less risk of losing muscle when on a calorie deficit if protein is kept high, so they can get away with a deficit on both days.)

    ‘Slow-Bulking’: So you are already very lean and looking to do a bulk? (Skip to Step 5 if it’s irrelevant to you, because I go into a little more detail here.)
    If you are new to leangains I would highly recommend that you do ‘body-recomposition’ macros (or slightly less) for the month first while you adjust to the system. This way you will keep your abs and have a base-line for increasing your macros after. Once you’ve done that, try the advice below.
    If you have already used leangains to get lean then you’re in a perfect situation to try this.

    The key to keeping abs with slow bulking is quite simple, make sure you have enough of deficit on your rest-day so that you burn the stored fat* from the training day.
    Your numbers might look something like 1800kCal and 2800kCal. (+40%/-10%kCal)
    This is a way of putting on quality muscle without the fat, and as such is a slower process than the usual ‘eat everything!” approach some people take to bulking.
    (*The complicating factor here is that fat stored on a training-day is not just is that the fat you consume, but also any spillover of carbohydrates that your body does not shuttle into your glycogen depleted liver & muscles after training, or use for recovery, as any excess glucose can be converted to fatty acids and stored as fat tissue. If you can get your carb balance right, you can decrease the deficit on your rest-day. – Track your progress weekly, in detail so that you can make adjustments objectively.)

    Step 5. Calculate your Macro Targets for Training-Days and Rest-Days
    There is not one perfect macro-ratio. (i.e. 40% Carbs, 40% protein, 20% Fat) It varies from individual to individual, and depends highly on a persons conditioning. It can still take a few weeks of close monitoring to get a good ratio for a client, and even then, this ratio changes as a person progresses. This is why I monitor the progress of clients, I don’t just give them 3 numbers and send them on their way. You need to do this too.
    Protein

    Your protein needs to be kept high on both days, for satiety and muscle preservation. Research suggests that with maintenance calories there is there is little benefit to >2g/kg lean body-mass (LBM). On a cut, to preserve muscle mass this may need to be higher, i.e. 2.5g/kg LBM. There is no need to go higher than this. However, for personal preferences you can choose to go higher, & protein will give you the feeling of being fuller for longer so I sometimes go with 3g per kg of LBM*.
    If you are 100kg with a lean-mass of 70kg, and love eating meat, then you might put this number around 210g on both days.
    Otherwise you would choose 2-2.5g/kg LBM on workout-days and 2.5-3g/kg LBM on rest-days. It is fine to keep protein consumption the same on both days for simplicity for now. I do.
    (*Please just guess lean body-mass. Don’t get all worked up over it.)
    Fat
    Fat is only your ‘enemy’ on a training-day. When eating above maintenance calories, what you eat will be stored. Try and keep fat low on this day. What is low? 20-40g for most people. But keep it as low as you feel you consistently can.
    Fat on a rest-day is not an issue. You’ll have a calorie deficit so all dietary fat will be burned off. Use this fact to your advantage and increase the fat number on this day so that you can eat a greater variety of foods. How much is higher? This depends as well. For now, try double*.
    (*Reduce this number if it makes the carbs allowance overly strict. But bear in mind that carbs are meant to be significantly lower on rest-days.)
    Carbs
    For your initial calculation think of carbs as just balancing the equation as per your T-Day and R-Day ‘calorie’ targets. Let’s not go into more detail than that.
    1g of: P = 4kCal*, C = 4kCal, F = 9kCal
    (*Latest research suggests this to be more like 3.2kCal because of the energy required for digestion, however I suggest you keep it simple and call 1g of protein 4kCal.)

    Let’s consider a man called Tom, 100kg, 70% lean body-mass, choosing body-recomposition (+20%/-20%) whose BMR calc+multiplier gave him 2000kCal. (Remember what I said earlier, I know the number is a little low.)
    So the Training Day Macros are:
    P = 210g, F = 30g, C = 322.5g
    Calories from Carbs = [T-Day Target calories] – [Protein calories] – [Fat calories]
    = 2400 – (210 x 4) – (30 x 9) = 2400 – 840 – 270
    = 1290 (kCal)
    Carbs in grams = 1290 / 4 = 322.5
    Rest Day Macros
    P = 210g, F = 60g, C = 55g
    Calories from Carbs = [R-Day Target calories] – [Protein calories] – [Fat calories]
    = 1600 – (210 x 4) – (60 x 9) = 1600 – 840 – 540
    = 220 (kCal)
    Carbs in grams = 220 / 4 = 55
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  4. #14
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    Hope this helps?
    As Totz has said, it is very difficult to get down 4000+ cals around training, and it leaves you feeling very lethargic and a bit bloated.

    I currently just aim for recomp (which is 3600 cals on training days - which is still a huge struggle - and 2400cals on rest days - which feels too litttle, and Im often painfully hungry later in the day)

    I do like the fasted training aspect (I train early in the day) and have 20g of BCAA immediately before and after training.
    I have noticed a loss of strength by not having carbs pre workout though

    But that said, I am now 41, lower metabolism (though active job) and getting huge is no longer my aim. I now look for a balance of health and muscle, and fat loss.

    I would say, that although you are only eating in that 8hr window, make sure you drink plenty of water, green tea or black coffee (unsweetened) through out the day, to keep you hydrated, and also to stave off hunger pains.

    Brix
    Last edited by Brixtonian; 07-07-2012 at 12:48 PM.
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  5. #15
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    Yeah, second what Brix said about the hydration during the day. I find that black coffee in the cold months is great and I like cold iced green tea sweetened with splenda during the warmer months. The sweetened tea makes me think less about being hungry for some reason.
    PRs:

    Squat - 485 lbs
    Bench - 315 lbs
    Deadlift - 635 lbs
    Total - 1435 lbs
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  6. #16
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    Been using IF for over 18 months now. Won a natural contest using it. It works perfectly with HST whether bulking or cutting.
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brixtonian View Post
    Hope this helps?

    Brix
    Sure it does, thanks a lot
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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totentanz View Post
    Yeah, second what Brix said about the hydration during the day. I find that black coffee in the cold months is great and I like cold iced green tea sweetened with splenda during the warmer months. The sweetened tea makes me think less about being hungry for some reason.
    Thanks a lot totentanz, this forum would be dead without your participation
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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by hstchamp View Post
    Been using IF for over 18 months now. Won a natural contest using it. It works perfectly with HST whether bulking or cutting.
    congrats champ! How do you calculate macros and kcal on training/rest days and during cutting/bulking?
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  10. #20
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    Jul 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironkid View Post
    congrats champ! How do you calculate macros and kcal on training/rest days and during cutting/bulking?
    Bulking as high as 6000 a day.

    Cutting starting around 2500 tapering down weekly to 1200 using UD 2.0 protocols mixed in with IF.

    tb.jpg

    A week out from the comp
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