prohormone: which to take?

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mikeynov

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This goes hand-in-hand with Bryan's thread. The difference is, I'm curious to hear people's anecdotal experience using prohormones. This includes brand, type, dosage, training, diet, etc. I'm also curious what products, if any, you used post-cycle to keep testosterone/estrogen at proper levels.

Based on these experiences, I was curious what people would recommend. Oral 1-AD (ala ergopharm's product) seems to be the highest recommended. Would this be a fair assessment?

I am considering using some prohormone compound for the first time. I believe I have access to enough information on the subject to reduce my overall risks, but was curious nonetheless to hear people's anecdotal reports. I know Steve M. was also interested in using these for the first time, as well...
 
i'm about to take the plunge too. i'd be curious to hear people's comments on mikeynov's questions.

(although i'm somewhat committed to a 19-nor-4-androstenediol cycle for my first prohormone experiment.)
 
I have no first hand experience with any of the products mentioned below. The information has been collected from people's anecdotal experience posted in various discussion forums.

Ergofarm 1-AD
Oral 1-AD
Easy to use (oral). No aromatization to estrogens. Side effects include stomach upset, painful urination, lethargy and loss of libido. Less effective for bulking due to no aromatization.

Biotest MAG-10
Oral 4-AD/A1E stack
Very easy to use: oral delivery with no stomach discomfort. Increases in CSN stimulation. Very few side effects have been reported. Hard to tell how effective this product is, since Biotest products tend to get slammed whether they deserve it or not. Bioavailability has been questioned. Most people seem to agree that it works, but not as well as ONE+ due to less effective delivery system. Causes fluid retention. Expensive.

Avantlabs ONE
Transdermal A1E.
Alongside ONE+ considered the most powerful legal androgen. No aromatization to estrogens. Side effects include lethargy, loss of libido, skin irritation and in some cases a rash. Some find it a hassle to apply transdermals. Less effective for bulking due to no aromatization.

Avantlabs ONE+
Transdermal 4-AD/A1E stack
Alongside ONE considered the most powerful legal androgen. Increases in CSN stimulation. Side effects include skin irritation and in some cases a rash. Some find it a hassle to apply transdermals. Causes fluid retention.

All of the above are androgens, which means side effects also include temporary reduction in testosterone production, oily skin, alterations in cholesterol ratios, possible hair thinning etc.

I will start my first PH/PS cycle when I start bulking in a couple of weeks. My first choice would be ONE+, but it's not available in the country I live in. I could easily order it from the US, but being a prosteroid, I'm afraid I might commit a crime by trying to sneak it by Customs. Prohormones are banned as well, but the worst thing that could happen would be that Customs seized it.
MAG-10 and 1-AD, on the other hand, are available where I live, and between the two, I think I would prefer MAG-10, because of the side effects associated with 1-AD, such as lethargy and stomach upset.
 
I have a friend who did a cycle about two years ago. He used the AST brand and did their "ultimate whatever" andro stack cycle. I just checked out the website and it is still there at www.ast-ss.com

Here is the info:

Morning:
1 - AndroPlex 700
1 - 19-Nor 3-Andro
Pre-Workout:
1 - AndroPlex 700
1 - 19-Nor 3-Andro
1 - 19-Nor 250
Evening:
1 - AndroPlex 700
1 - 19-Nor 250

This isn't the full cycle. He modified it so he was just taking the max number of pills the cycle advised for the 6 weeks. He really liked it because he felt nothing like it before. Full and larger muscles and greater strength. I think he gain about 10 lbs. of lean body mass. This was a big deal to him because of how fast he gained the muscle. He only had two problems. 1) It cost him somthing like $200 and 2) He only kept about half the weight he gained. $200 for just 5lbs.? Some can justify that that cost others will not. I worked out with him and could tell a difference. He looked larger and was stronger. Our other friends didn't really notice and people at the gym either didn't care or didn't notice as well. I think this is important for someone who wants to use a prohormone but doesn't want people to think he's on steriods. Ops. Did I just say that? Please disregard that last statement. I personally never found the cost appealing. I would rather try a cycle of Fina/DSMO at under $50 an get some massive results than spend hundreds of dollars on medicore gains. That is of course unless 1-AD or this new Mag-10 works better than what AST has. Well, that's my two cents. I would like to see what brands and cycles people used and the success they have had. Also what brands are "reputable" and which ones are not?
 
My experience was about four months ago with Ergopharm's Andro Spray.  It is a long acting topical formula.  I was expecting nothing much and was extremely surprised when I gained four pounds in 10 days (water retention) and was able to break through long standing sticking points on bench and squat poundages. (From 201 to 205 and no change in bodyfat %) My diet stayed the same as did my training.  I had been using creatine for the previous 2 months.  I also experienced a strange energy surge, but not like the ECA stack, which I also use.  I also experienced a jolt to my libido, this is as cleanly as I can put it.  I used almost the whole bottle.  Why did I stop?  Unexplicably, my testicles started to ache for hours at a time.  I stopped using it immediately and tried a week later.  They started to ache again and I haven't gone back on since.  I bought some 1-AD which is supposed to be free of these side effects but I really couldn't afford to take as much as I needed.  I'm going to try to stock up and then try a 6 week cycle of 1-AD.  In summary:  Andro Spray ROCKS!!....but......well, you know.
 
Hey Guys, I just started a cycle of Advents One+ and it rocks. I have taken almost every PH out there and this stuff can not compare to them. My strength and recovery time is unbelievable. Each body is different and responds differently to PH, mine likes 1-T. I did have some trouble sleeping the first three days but it seems my body is adapting to the higher T levels and I can sleep most of the night. No problems with skin rash or irritation at this point. I did shave my arms and upper legs for more room to apply the lotion. My weight is up from 199 lbs to 203.5 lbs in a week I think its from water retention, but I'm eating allot more to make Max gains as possible. Also I have the pumped look all the time.

Muscleman
 
I tried biotests andro spray.....three bottles...nothing in results. Then I tried eight weeks worth of biotests 4-ad after it came out. again nothing...no results whatsoever. About 3 months after the 4-ad I started doing hst training and gained 3/8 of and inch on each arm and went up about 7-8 lbs total in weight. So go figure. I am about to try a combo of 1-ad and one test both while cutting. (I don't try to drop but a few lbs...basically only slightly lower than maint calories) I don't expect much in the way of size, but I will be able to tell if i maintain or increase strenght if it is working at all...and so I am going to be realistic. What is the best way to take these? after wards i plan on stocking up on some one and 5-ad for a good bulking cycle. any one tried any combos of the nor products and or the 4-ad with the one or 1-ad? let me know so I can try a stack. I really like most of biotest's stuff, but think tribest sucks and so does 4-ad-ec. Mag ten? I don't know...it is rather expensive. I think if it doesn't work, then biotest should say so and switch to proven delivery systems. I am currently221 at 12%bf at a height of 5-8'1/2. Though hardcore lifters would never confuse me with a guy on roids, the 'laypeople' who I work with are always accusing me of being on steroids. I think while it is flatterring to some extent, it also can piss you off if you realize they are implying that all your years(14+) of hard lifting can be dismissed as an effortless regimen any one could achieve by taking drugs.I will be honest and try to report to you fellows on MY experiences. I make enough cash to try ALL the supplements..EVERYTHING OUT THERE so i will!!! Then I will HONESTLY report what I think. I want to hear from you guys also. Let me know what is worth trying. I am not going to dabble with true full blown steroids.. but anything legal and that is not a stimulant like ephedrine(yech!!), I would like to know about.
 
I've never done any PH/PS (or real juice cycles)... but from what I have read, ONE or ONE+ is the way to go... 1-AD (ergo) would be another good choice if you want an oral (as ONE and ONE+ are transdermal).
What most people don't realize is that PH/PS 's shut down natural test production just like any other external androgens... granted the person, doseage, specific drug, etc will vary, but the point is that you should use post cycle natural test recovery drugs/supplements to keep your gains and get your test going again... sorry I know this sounds remedial but ALOT of people don't know this...
If I ever do any cycle (PH or PS) I would use nolvadex (or clomid) and possible an anti-aromatase like arimidex or femara (if aromatizable androgens are used like ONE+) post cycle (maybe even nolva on cycle to prevent gyno if using ONE+ even though there is only a sliver of a chance... )
It is remarkable what HST, a bulking diet, and proper rest will yeild... on top of that I treat creatine like "juice".. as lame as that sounds, if you cycle creatine like 3 or 4 weeks on and then 3 or 4 weeks off and use it properly and mentally think of it as a something very powerful you might surprise yourself... If a few years from now, my natural test levels are the limiting factor in further development, then I will give a shot at a good 3 week PH/PS cycle. Just my thoughts :)
My major concerns with PH/PS cycles are not the temporary side effects like libido loss or whatever... rather, how it affects my body in the long term (prostate, etc...). From spending a year on an AAS board just reading, the prostate enlargement/cancer problems usually stem from a presence of very high androgens AND high estrogen levels at the same time.. not one or the other... however I have no idea as to how long someone would have to spend on an aromatizable androgen like ONE+ to start having problems (my guess would be that it would take quite a while at high doses... and therefore most 2-8 week cycles are pretty safe in terms of prostate problems). The HDL/LDL cholesterol levels are another concern as I know that low or non existent estrogen levels will start the HDL:LDL ratio in the bad direction (some ER site blockers will do this as well).. blood pressure would be another factor... however in the scheme of things, I think when done moderately and with proper research, ONE, ONE+, and 1-ad can all be done with a high level of safety and no long term problems.
One final concern would be "will I be able to say I'm natural"... as this has been debated on boards all over the net... my stance is that PH cycle = still natural... but PS (1-test is a pro-steroid) cycle = juiced... I don't want to start a big debate, but 1-test is simply a legal steroid (I can't believe the government hasn't found a way to ban it yet... only a matter of time...grrrrrr).

One more thing, while we are on this... I don't know how 1-test can be a descent mass drug since it is very similiar to DHT and does not aromatize... but aparently people ARE gaining on it... maybe I'm ignorant of something here, I don't know... the placebo effect and the increase in cals during a cycle might also help explain a small amount of the gains.
 
I have done biotest androsol (twice) and ergopharm androspray (twice). I have found that the bottle last me about three weeks. I like Androspray much better since it does not leave residue and seems to work better. I usually 1-2 bottles over 4 weeks. It's hard to report weight gain because I can't really tell how much is water and sometimes I am cutting so I don't expect to gain weight. My appearance is noticably different during the cycle, again could be due to water hardening me up. Here's a fact, my strength does shoot up even when I am 750 cals below maintenance.

In the next couple of days I will be doing my first avant labs One trial, at low dosage. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off (trib/vitex/avena sativa), 2 weeks on, 4 weeks off; about 9-12 cals x BW, my goal is to speed up fat loss.
 
NightOps, your discussion of what supplements one can take and still consider themselves "natural" is interesting. It's certainly something I've been wrangling with lately. I've come to the conclusion that using prohormones is no worse than what I've already been doing. I take tribulus, vitex, DIM... all are exogenous substances intended to influence my hormone levels. Why is it worse to use a chemical produced by your own body to influence hormone levels? (Really, isn't it "better" in some sense? The "natural" substances I listed are totally alien to my body.)

I think I agree with your distinction, but I want to make sure my understanding of prohormones and prosteroids is correct.

My understanding is a prohormone is a substance that your own body produces that is a precursor to some other (usually anabolic) hormone. In a sense it's "natural", since your body produces it (In this sense, it's more natural than vitamin C.) But you are introducing a high, exogenous dose -- maybe more than your body would ever produce on its own.

A prosteroid is a precursor to a substance that is foreign to the body but has anabolic properties. So it's less "natural" than prohormones. It's basically a chemical that skirts the law (you take legal substance A which produces illegal substance B in the body).

Is this a correct understanding?
 
I'm no expert at all, so I might have this wrong, but from what I understand anything that CONVERTS to an active steroid in the body (whether it is natural or not) is considered a PH (pro-hormone)... and IMO can be taken and you can still call yourself natural (this would INCLUDE 1-AD, as 1-AD CONVERTS to 1-test). Now, 1-test itself IS a steroid on its own (this would include avant's ONE/ONE+ and ergo's 1-test orals), it doesn't convert to anything, and therefore if you take it (IMO) you cannot call yourself "natural" any more (despite the fact that 1-test is somehow legal right now.)...
Anyone interested in PH/PS should join the www.avantlabs.com forums as they are full of knowledgable and friendly people and is NOT full of the typical supplement bull that you might expect.

Now, while we are on this, for older trainee's who have gotten perscribed HRT (either from a local doc/endocrinologist/andrologist or something like the LifeExtension program, etc...) IS still considered natural even though they are administering external androgens... this is because HRT (unless abused) is just that... Hormone REPLACEMENT therapy and its goal is to replace what your body used to produce... granted different delivery methods and doseages perscribed will vary (as some will be below what the body produced in lets say the mid 20's, and a few will be at such a level).
 
I agree with most of what you've written NightOp, but I most definitely disagree with your last point. How is having the hormonal profile of a 25-year old at the age of 50 anything but UNnatural? Else 50 year olds wouldn't need the stuff--it is, by definition, unnatural.
 
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Quote[/b] (Blood&amp;Iron @ Sep. 12 2002,4:16)]I agree with most of what you've written NightOp, but I most definitely disagree with your last point. How is having the hormonal profile of a 25-year old at the age of 50 anything but UNnatural? Else 50 year olds wouldn't need the stuff--it is, by definition, unnatural.
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That is a good point... the reason IMO that there is a distinction is that HRT is nothing close to a normal AAS cycle... yes it is &quot;unnatural&quot; in that sense (i.e. your example), but the reason I say it is still &quot;natural&quot; is because when people say &quot;i'm a natural lifter&quot; that has come to mean something very different then what the word &quot;natural&quot; orginally means. So yes, you are correct in saying its &quot;unnatural&quot; in the context, however, when people ask are you natural or not... the meaning of the term &quot;natural&quot; = &quot;no, i have never done an AAS cycle&quot; and that is its common usage.. see what imean? 300-600mg/week of test cyp is WAY more than the typical HRT and some men don't even need HRT (compared to other men of equal age)... but when HRT is given to someone experiencing true andropause, I would still say they are &quot;natural&quot; trainers... yes they would have an advantage over other testosterone deficient people their age who are not on HRT, but that doesn't mean they are juiced up either.

The above is my argument, I honestly have not read enough about HRT to be 100% on this and am sort of arguing for the sake of argument here, you very well may be correct.
 
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