Adding carbohydrate to a high-fat meal

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by dkm1987, Apr 29, 2008.

  1. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2008 Apr;33(2):315-25.

    Adding carbohydrate to a high-fat meal blunts postprandial lipemia in women and reduces meal-derived fatty acids in systemic circulation.

    Knuth ND, Remias DB, Horowitz JF.

    The lipemic response to a meal is an important independent risk factor for the development of cardiovascular disease. The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of adding carbohydrate (CHO) to a fat meal on the bioavailability of ingested fat in different blood lipid fractions in men and women. On two separate occasions, 18 healthy adults (9 women, 9 men) ate either a high-fat meal (0.7 grams fat per kilogram) (FAT), or the same meal with added CHO (1 gram CHO per kilogram) (FAT+CHO) in the morning after a 12 h fast. Both meals were supplemented with [13C]-palmitate (25 mg.kg-1). Plasma concentrations of triglyceride (TG), fatty acids, insulin, and glucose were measured in blood samples taken hourly from 0 to 8 h after the meal. In addition, we measured TG concentrations in chylomicron (CHYLO-TG) and in very-low-density lipoprotein (VLDL-TG) fractions. The addition of CHO to the fat meal increased plasma glucose and insulin concentrations identically in men and women. In contrast, adding CHO to the fat meal reduced the plasma TG concentration in the 5 h after the meal in women (average 5 h [TG]: 1.27 +/- 0.11 and 1.01 +/- 0.09 mmol.L-1; p <0.05), but not in men (1.25 +/- 0.23 and 1.24 +/- 0.20 mmol.L-1). Despite differences in the lipemic response to the meals between men and women, we found that adding carbohydrate to a fat meal decreased the bioavailability of meal-derived [13C]-palmitate in the systemic fatty acid pool, and decreased the incorporation of [13C]-palmitate into VLDL-TG in both men and women. In summary, adding CHO to a fat meal markedly blunted the plasma TG response in women, but not in men, which may augment the atherogenic potential after each meal in men.
     
  2. jwbond

    jwbond New Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Apr. 29 2008,8:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In summary, adding CHO to a fat meal markedly blunted the plasma TG response in women, but not in men, which may augment the atherogenic potential after each meal in men.</div>
    I can never read these damn studies!

    Can I get an interpreter?
     
  3. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (jwbond @ Apr. 29 2008,3:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Dan Moore @ Apr. 29 2008,8:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In summary, adding CHO to a fat meal markedly blunted the plasma TG response in women, but not in men, which may augment the atherogenic potential after each meal in men.</div>
    I can never read these damn studies!

    Can I get an interpreter?</div>
    Atherogenic means to cause atherosclerosis. Insulin is known to cause atherosclerosis already so that paper is nothing new.
     
  4. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Was new to me.
     
  5. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Apr. 29 2008,6:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Was new to me.</div>
    What did you think was the cause of atherosclerosis?
     
  6. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I didn't. I try not to eat great amounts of fat and carbs together.
     
  7. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Apr. 29 2008,9:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I didn't. I try not to eat great amounts of fat and carbs together.</div>
    I see. Do you know about the glycemic index? It's a scale of glycemic load foods. Glycemic means to cause blood glucose to rise. For instance, ice cream has a low glycemic load yet is full of sugar. If it weren't for the fat it contains, ice cream would be just as high on the scale as pure sugar. The point is, fat will slow down carb absorption so if you must eat carbs, it's a good idea to eat fat with it too. At least, if you believe the glycemic index principles.

    Yeah, I know. It goes against the hypothesis that we use the glucose and store the fat. But what can you do, ice cream does what it does.
     
  8. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see. Do you know about the glycemic index? It's a scale of glycemic load foods. Glycemic means to cause blood glucose to rise. For instance, ice cream has a low glycemic load yet is full of sugar. If it weren't for the fat it contains, ice cream would be just as high on the scale as pure sugar. The point is, fat will slow down carb absorption so if you must eat carbs, it's a good idea to eat fat with it too. At least, if you believe the glycemic index principles.</div>

    That is a very good point Martin.
     
  9. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Dan, should I refrain here from quoting from K&amp;N? I'm not sure if I can legally post quotes directly from it. Anyway, regarding the index, it can be virtually ignored for our purposes.
    My point in avoiding meals high in fat and carbs together is that the body won't use up both for fuel, storing more fat due to that.
    I know that's kind of simple, but it works for me. I know what happens when I mess up. Still, the average meal has carbs and fat together; I'm just referring to mass amounts with low protein macro. I believe that one or the other has to be greater; depending upon what mode the body is in, and most of us are in carb burning mode.
    Have I missed something? Always ready to learn.
     
  10. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Apr. 30 2008,5:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My point in avoiding meals high in fat and carbs together is that the body won't use up both for fuel, storing more fat due to that.</div>
    Whereas I've always figured the carbs produce an insulin spike that helps to tuck the fat safely away around my waistline. [​IMG]

    That's why I try to avoid fats and carbs together -- but I'm ready to learn, too.
     
  11. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    If you are exercising regularly and eating like a normal person should (even when bulking) I wouldn't worry about.

    Now comes the oh so familar cry from masses,
    &quot;But I'll gain fat&quot;........
    my reply.......
    &quot;uh yup you probably will because your bulking&quot;.

    Here comes the next familar cry from the masses..........
    But I don't want to get fat.......
    my reply........
    uh yup you probably will because your bulking.

    Then of course comes the obligatory question..........
    So how do I not get fat?........
    My reply.......
    uh don't bulk up or of course you can always turn to the darkside and start pinning.

    Apologising ahead of time for the soapbox moment.

    I know with all the banter here lately about insulin= really really bad mojo and I'm talking really bad mojo (I mean mojo so bad it's going to track down your great grandkids and F with them too) it's easy to take a stance against carbs. It's also easy to make assumptions when you look at those who have gone low carb and lost plenty of fat. Naturally I'm not disputing that going low carb will not have some specific benefit (mostly weight loss) but there is no &quot;magic&quot; here and there never was, it's essentially a matter of energy in vs out. Please don't hate me for speaking the truth, then again who cares if I'm hated.

    Anyway, back to the rant. I find it amusing that with all the talk of insulin=again, some really really bad mojo (yup you get it by now bad bad mojo) that so much information was passed over and not brought up. But such is the way of the internet I guess. For instance there is an overwhelming body of evidence that points in a completely different direction and in fact IMO is far more convincing than insulin=really bad mojo (ohhhhhhhhh scary mojo, bad mojo, evil insulin is, evil I say).

    Stepping down from the soapbox now..........
     
  12. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ May 01 2008,1:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
    I know with all the banter here lately about insulin= really really bad mojo and I'm talking really bad mojo (I mean mojo so bad it's going to track down your great grandkids and F with them too) it's easy to take a stance against carbs. It's also easy to make assumptions when you look at those who have gone low carb and lost plenty of fat. Naturally I'm not disputing that going low carb will not have some specific benefit (mostly weight loss) but there is no &quot;magic&quot; here and there never was, it's essentially a matter of energy in vs out. Please don't hate me for speaking the truth, then again who cares if I'm hated.

    Anyway, back to the rant. I find it amusing that with all the talk of insulin=again, some really really bad mojo (yup you get it by now bad bad mojo) that so much information was passed over and not brought up. But such is the way of the internet I guess. For instance there is an overwhelming body of evidence that points in a completely different direction and in fact IMO is far more convincing than insulin=really bad mojo (ohhhhhhhhh scary mojo, bad mojo, evil insulin is, evil I say).
    ...</div>
    That is very telling of your own views on the matter. Your opinion seems to dismiss everything that is known about insulin. Which in turn brings doubt to your objectivity and ultimately your credibility.

    Do you mean to say that a high carb diet does not cause hyperinsulinemia? Do you mean to say that hyperinsulinemia does not cause insulin resistance? Do you mean to say that insulin resistance does not cause obesity or Metabolic Syndrome? Do you mean to say that Metabolic Syndrome does not cause a chronic and acute hunger which, if fed carbs, simply exacerbates the entire hyperinsulinemia/insulin resistance/obesity/hunger loop? Or do you mean to say that it's all true but prefer not to take it too seriously?

    This is a bodybuilding forum and we would be the first to argue that eating carbohydrate, because of its effect on insulin and because of the effect of insulin on protein uptake, would be a good thing. After all, we want an increased protein uptake so why should we not indulge in eating sugar just for its effect on insulin? I supposed this mechanism works for a while. But insulin resistance builds up over time. And hyperinsulinemia builds up over time. And eventually, the pancreas can't keep up. It can't overcome insulin resistance anymore. That's when things go really bad really quickly.

    The alternative is that 66% of US adults overeat because they all have the same weak will. The same psychological problem. The same behavior. Somehow, they decided to eat more as if there was some overeating epidemic. Some psychological problem epidemic that, coincidentally, also caused the same behavioral character flaw: Overeating.

    Alright, I'm done with the soapbox too.
     
  13. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Some psychological problem epidemic that, coincidentally, also caused the same behavioral character flaw</div>
    You said psychological. I believe social epidemics would be a closer description, and not at all hard to believe, as we have so many others. Even if psychological is apt, it still rings true; sheep tend to follow the herd and 66% isn't unbelievable. If you don't believe me, to to any church social and watch 'em eat. Lovable people, but disgusting habits.
     
  14. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ May 01 2008,5:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Some psychological problem epidemic that, coincidentally, also caused the same behavioral character flaw</div>
    You said psychological. I believe social epidemics would be a closer description, and not at all hard to believe, as we have so many others. Even if psychological is apt, it still rings true; sheep tend to follow the herd and 66% isn't unbelievable. If you don't believe me, to to any church social and watch 'em eat. Lovable people, but disgusting habits.</div>
    Right. So it's a character flaw. Is it innate or acquired? Is it affected by other agents or does it follow its own programmed course? Is there another character flaw that can cause us to act compulsively in a similar manner? Does this other character flaw somehow appear in the same epidemic fashion as this one does? Is there a historic reference to a common character flaw where a whole population did the same thing during the same period and that brought about the same consequences?

    These are all reasonable questions once we delve into the psychological realm. We have to make a whole bunch of assumptions to get to this point but let's say we did and here we are, dealing with a psychological problem. So what's the therapy, the cure? Is there a therapy or cure to this epidemic? Some will immediately say that there is: Control calorie intake. To which I reply, it doesn't work for everybody so it's not an actual cure or even a therapy that can be applied to everybody. What about a drug, is there a drug that somehow fixes this character flaw? Remember, this is a psychological problem so the cure surely must be one that directly affects our brain. If we come up with a drug that somehow inhibits fat accumulation directly, then it's not a cure of the disease but only deals with the symptom. Remember, the character flaw is overeating. Excessive fat accumulation is a symptom of this disorder.

    At least, that's what we end up with when we think of it as a simple caloric equation.
     
  15. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (Martin Levac @ May 02 2008,8:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Do you mean to say that a high carb diet does not cause hyperinsulinemia? Do you mean to say that hyperinsulinemia does not cause insulin resistance? Do you mean to say that insulin resistance does not cause obesity or Metabolic Syndrome? Do you mean to say that Metabolic Syndrome does not cause a chronic and acute hunger which, if fed carbs, simply exacerbates the entire hyperinsulinemia/insulin resistance/obesity/hunger loop? Or do you mean to say that it's all true but prefer not to take it too seriously?</div>
    That is very telling of your own views on the matter. Your opinion seems to dismiss everything that is known about high carbohydrate diets. Which in turn brings doubt to your objectivity and ultimately your credibility.
     
  16. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ May 01 2008,5:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
    sheep tend to follow the herd and 66% isn't unbelievable.
    ...</div>
    Let's take a closer look at this proposition.

    You pay taxes, I pay taxes, everybody pays taxes. We do so according to a system with a bunch of rules to determine how much taxes to pay. So we do that math and come up with a number at the end of the year and pay that amount for that year. The success rate, i.e. the number of people who pay their taxes, in this system is fairly high. I'd say it's about 90% or more. In other words, it works well.

    We have a system in place for dietary recommendations. This system is intended to prevent all kinds of things. One of which is obesity. In the US, 66% of adults are overweight. In other words, the success rate of this system is no more than 34%. And it's growing worse every year. Quite a contrast to the taxes system, don't you think?

    Do you know what this dietary system is based on? The Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis. The diet/heart hypothesis. The saturated fat/heart hypothesis. The cholesterol/atherosclerosis hypothesis. The dietary fat/obesity hypothesis. It really looks bad for all these hypotheses.
     
  17. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (Martin Levac @ May 01 2008,2:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Do you mean to say that a high carb diet does not cause hyperinsulinemia? Do you mean to say that hyperinsulinemia does not cause insulin resistance? Do you mean to say that insulin resistance does not cause obesity or Metabolic Syndrome? Do you mean to say that Metabolic Syndrome does not cause a chronic and acute hunger which, if fed carbs, simply exacerbates the entire hyperinsulinemia/insulin resistance/obesity/hunger loop? Or do you mean to say that it's all true but prefer not to take it too seriously?

    This is a bodybuilding forum and we would be the first to argue that eating carbohydrate, because of its effect on insulin and because of the effect of insulin on protein uptake, would be a good thing. After all, we want an increased protein uptake so why should we not indulge in eating sugar just for its effect on insulin? I supposed this mechanism works for a while. But insulin resistance builds up over time. And hyperinsulinemia builds up over time. And eventually, the pancreas can't keep up. It can't overcome insulin resistance anymore. That's when things go really bad really quickly.

    The alternative is that 66% of US adults overeat because they all have the same weak will. The same psychological problem. The same behavior. Somehow, they decided to eat more as if there was some overeating epidemic. Some psychological problem epidemic that, coincidentally, also caused the same behavioral character flaw: Overeating.

    Alright, I'm done with the soapbox too.</div>
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Your opinion seems to dismiss everything that is known about insulin. </div>No this is obviously how you are taking my statement and not what I have said. Read what is written and do not read &quot;into&quot; what is written. My opinion is that insulin is not this evil substance that some fanatics tend to rave on about. Neither are carbohydrates.

    If you would read the research instead of keeping this close minded approach to insulin you may see that hyperinsulinemia may not be the only cause of IR. You may even see that insulin may not be the only cause of obesity or Metabolic syndrome. Here is but a sample of the wealth of knowledge that is available if you ever decide to reach beyond Gary Taubes.

    1: Maassen JA, Romijn JA, Heine RJ.
    Fatty acid-induced mitochondrial uncoupling in adipocytes as a key protective
    factor against insulin resistance and beta cell dysfunction: do adipocytes
    consume sufficient amounts of oxygen to oxidise fatty acids?
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    PMID: 18317722 [PubMed - in process]

    2: Chess DJ, Stanley WC.
    Role of diet and fuel overabundance in the development and progression of heart
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    Cardiovasc Res. 2008 Apr 10. [Epub ahead of print]
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    3: Carpentier AC.
    Postprandial fatty acid metabolism in the development of lipotoxicity and type 2
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    PMID: 18353699 [PubMed - in process]

    4: Wells GD, Noseworthy MD, Hamilton J, Tarnopolski M, Tein I.
    Skeletal muscle metabolic dysfunction in obesity and metabolic syndrome.
    Can J Neurol Sci. 2008 Mar;35(1):31-40. Review.
    PMID: 18380275 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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    From a glucocentric to a lipocentric approach towards metabolic syndrome.
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    Endocrinology. 2008 Mar;149(3):950-4. Epub 2008 Jan 17. Review.
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  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    WrongWrongWrong. You keep putting blame on things that apply only to your personal objective, causing you to miss the broader perspective, IMO.
    Boys in the 'Hood know that joining a gang will get them dead, as in NOT BREATHING NOW or in Jail...but do they go elsewhere? No. Why? They follow the masses, believe what &quot;feels&quot; the best, and ignore the obvious consequences. Hitler led masses into obvious destruction, looking at it from an objective viewpoint. What makes people follow destructive paths? It's not from paying attention to science, common sense, morality, or any hypothesis that you can apply. It's from a basic need to belong. And if everyone else is getting careless and sloppy, there ya go.
    Eventually epidemics become pandemic once they're spread or overpopularized, and it seems evident here and in Europe. Hedonism is not a new concept either; very attractive to many. I don't see the confusion here.
    We can stick all the fancy names we want (I sound really ignorant here) on all the theories we come up with, scientific ideals or what have you, but people are still people and outside of direct application when it comes to usage of the mind. So we do our best with Psychology, Sociology, and Psychiatry to define mannerism and behavior. And they will still eat stupidly.
     
  19. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ May 01 2008,7:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
    We can stick all the fancy names we want (I sound really ignorant here) on all the theories we come up with, scientific ideals or what have you, but people are still people and outside of direct application when it comes to usage of the mind. So we do our best with Psychology, Sociology, and Psychiatry to define mannerism and behavior. And they will still eat stupidly.</div>
    It sounds like you're saying that if people are left to their own devices, i.e. without government or some form of leadership, they're going to choose the destructive path.

    That's not what Price found. In isolated populations that hadn't yet been &quot;civilized&quot;, dental caries was extremely rare. So was the entire spectrum of chronic diseases including obesity, diabetes and cancer. As far as we know, those isolated populations were left to their own devices and were doing quite well by all accounts. It's only when they were introduced to civilized foods, i.e. refined carbs, that they started getting sick.

    I could make the argument that only when they introduced an arbitrary form of leadership did things start to go bad. By leadership, I mean leadership of their everyday actions. Things like eating, sleeping, and just living. When those activities are governed by their own inherent functions, i.e. we eat for nourishment and we sleep to fulfill a basic need, then there is no other choice but to do them only to satisfy the requirements of their own inherent functions. In other words, survival drives us to do what we must. How do the national dietary recommendations fit into all this?

    We eat to feed ourselves but what determines what to eat or when to eat or how much to eat? The primary regulator of food intake is hunger. It's only natural to consider that, in a situation where one overeats, this mechanism is disrupted. If it is disrupted, what's the cause? The first place I'd look is at the food itself. Is it possible that the food itself causes us to overeat? If it does, what property does that food have that makes us eat more than our share?

    The obesity epidemic is growing worse. By all measures, this means the national dietary advice is a failure. People are not stupid. They'll follow advice if it looks alright and if it's easy. The dietary advice is simple: Eat less and/or be more active. We got both the 'looks alright' part and the easy part taken care of. So why does it still not work to reduce obesity? Why are people still overeating? Could it be that the food that these people eat somehow makes them eat more of it? It's a reasonable question.

    Aaron_F posted one graph that showed the effect carbohydrate has on total energy intake. Shouldn't we look at that in more detail? It sure looks to me like if there's anything that would cause people to choose the destructive path in this case, then it must be the carbohydrate.

    By the way, activity level has not decreased. If anything, it has increased if the number of people going to the gym is any indication. So that can't be the cause of the worsening obesity epidemic. People did not choose the destructive path on this aspect either.
     
  20. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ May 01 2008,7:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...that hyperinsulinemia may not be the only cause of IR. You may even see that insulin may not be the only cause of obesity or Metabolic syndrome.
    ...</div>
    Are you suggesting that there is something else, something common to all those millions of people that causes them to grow fat independently of carbohydrate, insulin, insulin resistance and Metabolic Syndrome? That would be easy to test: Don't eat carbohydrates and see what happens. Find the research that does just that and let's discuss the results.
     

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