Foundation Supplements

Spencer

New Member
Hi guys,

Was wondering what supplements do you use as the "base"? as in, supps that you use year round (including cycling) and deem as "necessary"?

For me, i am currently using,

Centrum Multivitamin and minerals
GNC Creatine Plus
Prolab N-Large2
Optimum Nutrition Pro Complex (New)
Udo's Choice Oil Blend
GNC ZMA

as my foundation. Is there anything i should add to this stack?
Also, what do you use?

Regards
Spencer
 
I use (in order of priority):

1) Protein powders
2) Creatine
3) EFAs (fish oil)
4) 1/2 multi vit/mineral per day

When I can afford it, I'll use:
CLA

HMB (well suited for HST, but less useful with traditional training methods)

Ipriflavone or methoxy-7 (for the effects on calcium and tendons, not muscle)
 
The things I use year round are:

Protein Powders
EFA's
Multi Vits/Mierals

When I bulk in the fall I will add Creatine

For cutting I use E/C and now Yohimburn (since it's working so well)

Bryan, will we be seeing HSN HMB in the future?

Steve
 
Protein
- HSN Proteins
- Other micellar caseins, whey isolates, or blends

Creatine
- No favorite brand -- right now using ProLab

Vitamins & Minerals
- Twinlab Daily One Caps
- Additional zinc and magnesium

EFAs
- 1000mg fish oil caps (about 6/day)
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (virtualcyber @ May 30 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why EFA before CLA?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Just because CLA is more expensive
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Also, CLA can't exactly &quot;replace&quot; EPA as far as nutritional needs go. But it does do the same job on fat cells (through PPARs)
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Steve McDermott @ May 30 2002,1:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bryan, will we be seeing HSN HMB in the future?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would like to. However, at this point, the stigma that is attached to HMB would be too difficult to overcome to be able to sell enough to stay afloat.
 
Good post Spencer.

I just finished my first cycle and I wanted to add a few more supplements.
I used protein powder- whey and multivitamin for my first HST cycle.

What is everyone's thought on adding creatine during cutting and would glutamine be helpful. If yes could someone give me the details of glutamine dosing as I am unable to find how much would be effective.
 
Regarding creatine, I'm almost to the point that I consider it food. I don't consciously think about using it -- it's just automatic. I don't cycle at all. 5g (~tablespoon) a day or so.

I tried glutamine for a month and didn't notice anything.

And like Bryan said, CLA is spendy. I'd love to see an affordable yet potent HSN CLA supplement.

I got my hands on some powdered CLA, but I've only managed to take it twice. Both times it tasted like hell and made me ill for like 3 or 4 hours. I bought a pound of it, thinking I'd take high doses for a month to see if there is an effect. Total waste, unless I can buy some empty capsules and fill them with the powder. (At least that would solve the taste issue.)
 
[jon stark wrote]

&gt; Both times it tasted like hell and made me ill for like 3 or 4
&gt; hours.

I am taking capsules, but when I am digesting CLA, I feel sick -- so you are not alone. By putting your powder CLA into capsules, you might be solving the taste issue, but you still have to deal with &quot;ill&quot; feeling.

I have the nagging suspicion that CLA is mildly toxic to one's fat cells. It feels as _if_, when I takes CLA in large quantities, my body makes an effort to burn it -- but because there is so much, it is forced to absorb them.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When I can afford it, I'll use:
CLA

HMB (well suited for HST, but less useful with traditional training methods)

Ipriflavone or methoxy-7 (for the effects on calcium and tendons, not muscle)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hi Bryan, good to see your posts here. IMO, Udo's Choice Oil Blend is the perfect source of EFAs. Why only CLA? wouldnt having a variety of oils in predetermined ratio be better than just CLA?

And, though Hmb MAY work, I dont think the effects are noticeable or well worth the money spent (since it is very expensive to be used regularly). What do you think and also what do you mean by it is well suited for HST but not other traditional training methods?

As for Ipriflavone and methoxy-7 , i think there are no well documented research done on humans using flavones to see whether does it aid in hypertrophy and worse still, Ipriflavone might be toxic. You mentioned for effects on calcium and tendons, does it work and is it worth the money? Wouldnt taking enough calcium be more cost effective?
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Regarding creatine, I'm almost to the point that I consider it food. I don't consciously think about using it -- it's just automatic. I don't cycle at all. 5g (~tablespoon) a day or so.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Jon, you mean you use it year round without cycling? Will it be less effective this way? I read something about receptors downgrading but wasnt sure. Loading or not loading? Cycling or no cycling? I would like to heard from the experts, especially Bryan, to solve this once and for all.

Regards
Spencer
 
Why cycle?

while there is controversy reguarding possible problems, there is no true problem to cycle.

Either your muscle creatine is high or not. Preferably it is high, because it gives better results.
If you cycle off, it takes ~1 month to go to baseline, then you just go to the maximun level again. Whats the point?
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you cycle off, it takes ~1 month to go to baseline, then you just go to the maximun level again. Whats the point?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It may seem logical this way. But i would like to think there are other factors involved as well. Does it get less effective over time? Does loading make a difference? I would like to hear more comments about cycling and loading creatine so as to determine the most effective method of taking it.

Aaron, you mentioned that you are a nutritionist.
thumbs-up.gif


Protein: eggs, milk, chicken, salmon,tuna
Carbs: All Bran cereals, oatmeal, 12 grain bread, pasta,
Fats: Udo's choice oil blend

I need more ideas for my diet. Could you add more choices to the respective groups? Thanks

Regards
Spencer
 
Spencer, Here are a few suggestions.

Protein:Cottage Cheese(extremely good source), lean Beef
Carbs: Vegetables(high fiber),fruits(in moderation), brown rice
Fats: nuts(walnuts,almonds), flax seeds(ground), flax oil, peanuts, olive oil

Steve
 
Spencer, back to the creatine issue...  Things like HMB and CLA are spendy, so I do want to know when is the best time to take them, what is the minimum effective dose, how to cycle if necessary, etc.

But creatine is so cheap I could take 20g a day and not worry about the cost.  So I don't think it's worth worrying about.  And I don't think it's something you need to &quot;cycle&quot; anyway -- unless you are cutting and you are maybe worried about retaining water or something.  I just take 5g added to my pre-workout protein (HSN Primer).

Regarding flavones, here a link to an article Bryan wrote about them...  maybe it'll answer some of your questions.

http://www.musclemonthly.com/article....ork.htm

I don't use them, personally.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spencer @ May 31 2002,12:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi Bryan, good to see your posts here. IMO, Udo's Choice Oil Blend is the perfect source of EFAs. Why only CLA? wouldnt having a variety of oils in predetermined ratio be better than just CLA?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If Udo's is your only source of fat in the diet, it’s great. I tend to get some fat of various kinds in the food I eat so the &quot;ideal ratio&quot; of fats in Udo's is no longer ideal when combined with the other fats in my diet. Instead I just want to add some that I may be low in. CLA I take only for its effects on PPARs.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> And, though Hmb MAY work, I dont think the effects are noticeable or well worth the money spent (since it is very expensive to be used regularly). What do you think and also what do you mean by it is well suited for HST but not other traditional training methods?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It all depends on what &quot;work&quot; you are expecting it to do. The same goes for &quot;noticeable effects&quot;.

HMB appears to be converted mostly to beta-hydroxy-beta-methylglutaryl CoA (HMG-CoA). HMG-CoA is then used to make cholesterol within cells. This is important for muscle cells in that they cannot use cholesterol from the blood.

Here is where much of the misunderstanding about HMB comes in. HMB has NOT been shown to directly inhibit protein breakdown, and certainly does not cause protein synthesis. A study done in 1997 looked at the effects of giving lambs high doses of HMB (Br J Nutr. 1997 Jun;77(6):885-96). To their surprise, HMB did not have any effect on protein catabolism or anabolism. In essence, HMB didn’t do squat under normal conditions.

So, if you are expecting HMB to &quot;build&quot; muscle you are going to be disappointed. If the &quot;noticeable effect&quot; you are looking for is anabolism, you are going to be disappointed.

However you’ll notice that the fate of ingested HMB is mainly to be converted to HMG-CoA, a substrate for cholesterol synthesis. It appears that cholesterol synthesis may be a rate-limiting step in membrane repair after intense training.

HMB significantly decreased the exercise-induced rise in muscle breakdown as measured by urine 3-methylhistidine and CK during the first 2 wk of exercise. In the studies showing an effect of HMB on muscle breakdown, the differences between the HMB group and the placebo group tend to decline over a period of about 3-4 weeks until at about 4-5 weeks there is no difference in the above markers of damage, including 3-MH. This reflects the fact that, if the cholesterol mechanism is true, HMB serves to facilitate rates of growth only when membrane integrity is a limiting factor. This generally occurs during the first two to three weeks of a new or unaccustomed exercise program. After that, muscles become resistant to further damage (repeated bout effect, or rapid training effect) induced by that particular program (loading regimen) and HMB supplementation loses its usefulness.

HST is characterized by a constant increase in load following a period of Strategic Deconditioning. Therefore, when followed with the appropriate frequency, you stay just ahead of the structural recovery curve. This keeps you constantly in a state of muscle damage. This appears to be the only time when HMB is useful.

In traditional routines you use the same weight until you can add more because your strength has increased. I’ve seen guys use the same weight on their lifts workout after workout for months or even years at a time. Their muscle tissue is tuff as shoe leather and there virtually NO structural damage to the tissue after any workout. They simply walk out of the gym with their butt kicked but with no new muscle to show for it…for months at a time! HMB facilitates “recovery” from frequent heavy bouts of training typical of HST. I have experienced increased exercise tolerance when using it. No I didn’t measure anything, I just felt better and stronger with fewer aches and pains.

I haven’t even began to talk about the benefits of the calcium in HMB with respect to fat cell metabolism: (J Am Coll Nutr. 2002 Apr;21(2):146S-151S.; FASEB J. 2000 Jun;14(9):1132-8.; FASEB J. 2001 Feb;15(2):291-3.; J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Oct;20(5 Suppl):428S-435S; discussion 440S-442S.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for Ipriflavone and methoxy-7 , i think there are no well documented research done on humans using flavones to see whether does it aid in hypertrophy and worse still, Ipriflavone might be toxic. You mentioned for effects on calcium and tendons, does it work and is it worth the money? Wouldn’t taking enough calcium be more cost effective?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I don’t take it (when I take it) for its purported effects on muscle (see previous post). I take it because it has been demonstrated to reduce collagen protein breakdown. Ipriflavone also increases calcium uptake from the gut. Those are the only two reasons I use it. As for toxicity, it has been shown to affect the immune system to a non-significant degree. For those concerned about this effect they should not take it.
 
Bryan - Thanks for the your detailed response to HMB.

What are your thoughts on using creatine during a dieting cycle? I am on a very limited budget( The usual broken college student story :confused: ) and am planning to add a few limitied suppliments I can add to my next HST cycle.
I used Whey protein and a multivitamin before.

I have decided to my next HST cycle when I would be dieting the following:

1. Casein/EggWhite/ Whey protein combination (eager to try HSN but it has to wait )
2. EC
3.Creatine ( not sure about this)
4. Fish Oils
5.finally Hmb if i can fit it into my budget

What is others memebers thoughts on this and what do you all consider the foundation to a soild dieting cycle apart from the diet itself.
 
[3) EFAs (fish oil)
4) 1/2 multi vit/mineral per day]

Bryan,

I find your use of a 1/2 multi vit/mineral to be interesting. Whay a half? Also, how much EPA/DHA (fish oil) are you taking? I was under the assumption that both fish oil and CLA had to be used together to produce the desired effect on PPARs. I did not know that this could be done with fish oil alone. How much EPA/DHA is needed for an effect on PPARs?
 
Whats PPARs? I would think that creatine during a cutting cycle would be useful to giving the muscles a fuller and volumised look as creatine pulls water into the cells. Often, people think that creatine can cause water retention ( water outside the cell) and make you look bloated and smooth. But this is not true. More water inside a cell makes nutrients more effective, as in protein synthesis is increased and gylcogen is replenish more effective. Creatine also does not have any caloric value. IMO, it can be use year round though i am still split on whether to load and cycle. I know it is cheap but i would like to know what is the most effective way to take creatine.

Also, i have read that you should be looking at the total amount of protein you take instead of the sources you get it from. How true is this? Wouldnt this mean any protein powder on the market will do? (If this is true, i would go opt for the 5lb tub of optimum nutrition whey which is cheaper)

Which is more important in choosing a protein powder? Quality or quantity?

To give an example, Syntrax's Isomatrix (2.2lbs) or Optimum Nutrition 5 lb Whey?
 
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