HST, insulin resistance, and obesity

javacody

New Member
I'm starting this topic, because 95% of info out there on body building seems to be aimed at skinny hard-gainers. I can gain weight simply by THINKING about food.
First, let me detail my situation, and then ask my question(s).

First off, I currently weigh 410 at 6'4". I've been doing HST with a bowflex type machine for 1.5 years. I originally weighed 456 in December of 2005. I did little to change my diet (just added in more veggies) and did no cardio for the first year, and managed to get down to ~435 with pretty good muscle gains.

I'm very obviously insulin resistant, had high blood pressure (110 over 70 now), big waist, get tired after large, high carb meals (I feel like I need to lay down and sleep), and had a sore on my leg that took almost a month to heal.

In the past few months, I've transitioned to a low carb diet (less than 20g per day), added in an hour to two hours of light cardio (65% max heart rate), and HST. I also upgraded from my bowflex type machine to Selecttech dumbells (1090's) this past week.

I have a cheat day (usually Sundays) to keep my sanity and to refill glycogen stores. I manage to gain about 10 pounds on Sunday (mostly water) which is gone again by Wednesday.

I drink about a gallon (or more) of iced green and white tea per day, eat at least 3 cups per day of leafy green veggies, and get plenty of protein and EFA's. I also eat a small amount of natural peanut butter (less than 1 Tb per day), and high fiber Scandinavian Bran Crackers (3 grams soluble fiber per cracker, I eat at least 2 per day).

Right now, my supplementation consists of fenugreek seed, cinnamon, gymnema sylvestre, bitter melon, garlic oil, ginseng, chromium polynicotinate (all for insulin resistance) as well as nightly EFA's (a combo of Omega 3s/6s/9s), calcium, magnesium, zinc, B complex, and forskohlii.

I also usually take a multi, but I'm out at the moment.

I've been really focusing more on improving my health and building muscle, rather than purely on weight loss. I know that the fat will come off as a consequence of my healthy lifestyle changes. I also know that I cannot maintain carbs this low forever. My strategy once I get below 300 pounds is to slowly start adding in more healthy carbs (beans and berries, mostly).

I want to add that I eat breakfast every day (5 scrambled omega 3 eggs with spinach and habanero sauce) and I weigh myself every day. I also eat small meals every 2 to 3 hours.

Also, from what I know of insulin resistance, a typical bodybuilder's high protein diet will not work, because my insulin resistant body will convert a fairly large amount of it to glucose. I've had the most success with a high fat, moderate protein (about 100 g per day), and very low carb diet. I feel the most energetic and least hungry if I get a majority of my calories (~75%) from fat. This also falls in line with research done on high percentage fat intakes (I read about this in the Atkins book, its called a "fat-fast", where a fat intake of between 70 and 90% caused only about 2% of the total weight loss to be protein, muscle loss was much higher with the high protein and high fat diets and total weight loss was lower on these diets as well. This is from memory, but the figures should be pretty close).

My questions? What else could/should I be doing to help ensure that I burn the maximum amount of fat and remove my body's insulin resistance? Any strategies for staying lean once you get there? Last but not least, what is a healthy weight, for a big-boneded, 6'4, muscular man? I'm talking real-world here, not what Doctor's preach. If I weighed 170, I'd be nothing but skin and bone.
 
Do you have any medical basis for stating you`re insulin resistant?Like high levels of fasting glucose or someone who`s actually an MD telling you you are insulin resistant?Or are you going by BBer guru logic, like if you get a big carb meal and want to go to sleep OMG OMG OMG DA EVIL INSULINZ IZ MAKING YOU DA FATZ COZ YOUZ DA RESISTANT?Because BBer gurus tend to be morons once they get caught up in a certain line of thought they can`t shake off no matter what.

At your bodyweight, you need no refeed...ok, maybe one per month. More often refeeds make sense as you get(a lot) leaner, but ATM they`ll only induce wheel spinning. Chromium is rather ****, you`re wasting money on it. The best strategy for maximal weightloss, considering your condition...hang on, this`ll be a very advanced approach to the issue, dunno if it`s ever ever been mentioned anywhere, but I`ll spill the beans here:eat less, move more. That`ll be 300$, thank you. No, really, getting to about 15% BF is incredibly easy. Getting to 10% may be harder. Getting below that...you`ll probably not bother.

Unless you have a documented medical condition that classifies you as an insulin-resistant individual, free your mind from the noise of:OMG, eating a ton of pancakes with syrup makes me lethargic which means i`m insulin resistant which means carbs are the evil, coz the paleo man ate no friggin source of carbs like ever etc. Do a balanced diet, something let`s say Zoneish. Multiply your bodyweight in pounds with 14.Multiply the above determined value with 0.75, and let`s name it...a. Subtract from the a the product of your bodyweight and 4(which is your protein intake in calories). Multiply a with 0.3(this is your fat intake in calories),let`s nameit b.Subtract your protein intake in calories and your fat intake in calories from a(this is your carb intake in calories), let`s name it c. Divide a by 4 to find out protein grams per day, divide b by 9 to find fat grams and divide c by 4 to find carb grams. Get 6g of fish oil per day.

Eat in a non retarded fashion(which means no tubs of icecream, no piles of french fries, no butter on lard on meat CUZ you`re stimulating the fat burning hormone-it doesn`t exist-,get veggies cuz they`re good for you, get fruit coz it`s good for you, meat, starches...you get the picture).
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Do you have any medical basis for stating you`re insulin resistant?</div>

I haven't had my glucose levels checked, but many of the symptoms are there:

1. Slow healing (especially on the lower legs), with an open sore that lasted for several weeks
2. lethargy, especially in the afternoon
3. Brain fog
4. large amount of abdominal fat
5. high blood pressure
6. Skin tags
and several others too personal to mention on a public forum.

My doctor, being a good doctor advocated lifestyle change above all else. She told me I was headed for diabetes and that I needed to exercise more and lose weight. Forunately for both of us, I took her advice and am doing something about my condition.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the paleo diet. I'll keep my cheese and raise you some peanut butter. I also don't really care for raw meat. Rare steak, but not raw.

Physically? Yes, I don't need a refeed, probably for a good six months to a year. Mentally? Once in a while, you just gotta eat a large pizza. I'll take your advice on this and space the cheat days out further. I'll move them out to once every two weeks, and once I get comfortable with that, I'll move them out further.

I've been a big stress eater. I'd go home after work and eat more than I'd eaten the previous 10 hours. It was almost uncontrollable. I could stop doing it for a few days, but I'd freak out eventually. I'd make an angry grizzly bear look pretty agreeable.

I'd be a fool to not address my psychological needs for over-eating and to not make gradual changes. I only went low carb to break free of the constant cravings and to address what I'm fairly certain (based on my own personal observations and research on the topic) are issues with insulin resistance. I could be wrong, and you are correct, only glucose testing can tell me for sure. I can verify though, that my lower legs no longer take over a month to heal when I get a mosquito bite, so I must be doing something right.

I'm going to work through the forumula you gave:

bodyweight x 14 = 5740
5740 x .75 = 4305
protein intake in cals 410 x 4 = 1640
4305 - 1640 = 2665
fat intake in cals 2665 x 0.3 = 799.5
carb intake in cals 4305 - 1640 - 799.5 = 1865.5

protein (g): 410
fat (g): 88.833
carbs (g): 466.375

My current intake is:
protein (g): 100
fat (g): 168.888
carbs (g): 20 (or less)

I'm averaging about 2000 calories per day.

If and when I plateau (for longer than four weeks) or reach 300 pounds (whichever comes first), I will up my protein intake. My primary goals are fat burning and minimizing muscle loss. A few studies have shown that when a large majority of calories are consumed from fat, then muscle is spared. Granted, these studies focused on 1000 calorie diets, but when nothing else has worked (and I've been trying to become fit and healthy off and on my entire adult life - I'm 33), this does.

This is radical, and not for your average Joe. It is only for extreme cases.

bodyweight &gt; 400 lbs = extreme case.

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply Morgoth, and everything you said makes great sense. I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that I've read it all before, at least a dozen times. I'm not sure if you've ever been obese (I'm guessing not), but trust me, I've tried this advice and honestly, I couldn't stick with it for long. I needed the hunger drive quenched significantly to deal with my obsession with food.

Once that is under control permanently (I'm actively working on it) and I'm approaching a healthy weight, then I'm certain this common sense approach will work.

Also, as an aside, did you know that many cancerous tumors have completely lost the ability to use fat as energy? They burn sugar exclusively as their energy source. When you force them to burn fat again (by triggering their mitochondrial DNA), they die. This is an oversimplification, but it is basically correct.

Also, see the following article on insulin resistance:
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/insulin.htm
The article mentions that the one thing that people who live to be very old have in common is low insulin levels. It also mentions that chromium is effective in diabetics at lowering insulin levels.

Just some food for thought.
 
You`d guess wrong, i was an extremely fat(probably obese) kid, but that`s besides the point.

Being very fat(sorry, don`t mean to be crude) does induce insulin resistance, that is correct. The protein sparing effects of being in ketosis(what you`re saying WRT fat saving protein etc.) are arguable, and you`d have to have a fairly low protein intake to begin with to experience them, otherwise odds are you`ll not be in ketosis. OTOH, we know protein to be protein sparing...so would you go for something that is certainly good at protecting LBM, or for something that should be good for protecting LBM? And I fucked up on the caloric reccomendations, because basically I wasn`t thinking as carefully as I should`ve about your weight...so, substitute weight in pounds with LBM in pounds in the above and you`d get something closer to reality.(so yes, I`m stupid like that sometimes)

You can have Pizza everyday, as long as you hit your caloric goals and don`t mess them up. I think that in terms of recomposition, clean eating isn`t something you must do religiously, otherwise you`ll not lose weight, au contraire. But a cheat days means having many pizzas and many calories(in my understanding), and that you don`t need on a weekly basis at this point.

Anyways, you know what works best for you, and it`s not my goal to persuade you to do anything. I wish you luck on your endeavour and hope you`ll achieve your goals. Cheers.
 
Just something to ponder on: Cheat days - most people equate them with &quot;treat&quot; days, but if you sat down and thought about it isn't the reason you're on a diet due to these...
You're doing well, judging by the numbers posted, but sort your food out like ya household bills; make up monthly menus with assoc weekly shopping lists, buy the food then forget about 'til mealtime.
 
Morgoth, I asked for input. I think the advice you gave was excellent. I'm thinking on it more seriously. Sometimes its hard to really consider advice from someone who was never fat and has never had to go through anything similar to you. This is why I don't trust much of the advice I read on the internet.

Its good to know that other fat people have been able to do it. I'm looking forward to being one of those examples, one day.

Also, you are not being crude. I am very fat. I've always been amazed that fat people get hurt by being called fat. Its stupid, isn't it? The only way to overcome obesity is to take a hard look at oneself, and realize, &quot;Jesus, I am friggin huge.&quot; I see pictures of myself in the 450's, and its shocking. At 410, I'm still only slightly smaller than a beached whale, but at least my arms don't look like marshmallows anymore. I have traps for the first time in my life, too. I'm not sure if I can quite convince myself that I'll ever see my abs, but I'll settle for not having a spare tractor tire around my waist.

the_dark_master, thanks for the advice. I do need to work on the meal planning. I record everything I eat in fitday.com, but planning makes more sense. Right now, I have to think about everything I'm eating every day. It would be much easier (and life would be more fun) to kind of have this on autopilot.

The cheat days are now officially every two weeks. When I've adapted to this, I will move them to every three weeks, and then every four weeks.

Thanks for the help, guys!
 
Dang you Mor, I went through all those calculations for myself only for you to say &quot;Uh, OOOPSIE, dat were wrong...&quot;
You got a general one for figuring lean mass? I mean, now that I have to start all over....
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JavaC: my hat's off to you. By my standards and requirements, you are officially a bodybuilder in that you study, apply knowledge, make changes when something doesn't work, make sacrifices, and remain consistent. Kudos, and hang in there bro.

Interesting read: http://www.steroid-encyclopaedia.com/ezine.php?story=170
 
Wow. I got goosebumps reading that article. I need to read that every day.

Thanks for the support quadancer. I realized at one point that to do what I needed to do and accomplish what I needed to accomplish, I needed to start calling myself what I am, a bodybuilder. Now that I'm a bodybuilder, my old ways are becoming more and more foreign. You are the first person (other than myself, and only a month or so ago) to call me a bodybuilder. I can't tell you how great reading that made me feel.

I used to think that bodybuilders were dumb muscleheads. Especially, after my wonderful experiences playing JV football in High School. I've realized now though, that bodybuilders, and especially the guys on this forum, are pretty damn smart people.

The other thing that I never realized until recently, was that the working out part of this is the easiest. The mental work is very hard, and I find myself almost a completely different person, mentally than when I started.

Also, how the heck do I figure out my lean body mass? Skinfold test? Where is the best place to get a skinfold test done? I've read that depending on the person doing the testing, they can be pretty inaccurate.
 
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(quadancer @ May 30 2007,10:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dang you Mor, I went through all those calculations for myself only for you to say &quot;Uh, OOOPSIE, dat were wrong...&quot;
You got a general one for figuring lean mass? I mean, now that I have to start all over....
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JavaC: my hat's off to you. By my standards and requirements, you are officially a bodybuilder in that you study, apply knowledge, make changes when something doesn't work, make sacrifices, and remain consistent. Kudos, and hang in there bro.

Interesting read: http://www.steroid-encyclopaedia.com/ezine.php?story=170</div>
Umm, Quad, unless you`re sitting at a hugeish BF %age(which I doubt you are), those numbers are ok, they consider a rather sluggish metabolism and create a 25% caloric deficit based on that above assumption. If you want to be absolutely correct, get a BF %age determination as accurate as you can get, and multiply the protein by your LBM instead of total body mass.

There are a billion anally-retentive ways of computing stuff, with formulas that are more or less complex, but fact is that save for complete morons(and you`re certainly not one), it`s fairly useless as any conscious dieter will adjust his approach in accordance with what he sees:he`ll lower the calories if he isn`t losing weight, he`ll increase em if he isn`t gaining it, he`ll reduce/increase them somewhat if he wants to maintain and he isn`t maintaining either due to gaining or loosing weight.

What`s important is that you get 1g of protein /lb(or if you`re very fat, 1 g per pound of lbm as to not skew your numbers badly), enough EPA+DHA(about 3 g tops should be optimal), and caloric padding to fit your goals. That`s it. I screwed up in his case because I neglected his weight and ended up with what I consider an overshoot in terms of calories and macros, that`s all.(I think:) )
 
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(javacody @ May 30 2007,00:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
Don´t think about the paleo diet in the strict sense. think of it this way: take in ALL your carbs from ONLY fruits and veggies and nothing else. eat your cheese and eat your meat and nuts for protein and fats. walk 10 kilometers a day. use only the stairs. take your DHA/EPA as suggested unless you eat salmon 3x a week. don´t waste your money on ANY OTHER PILLS OR VITAMINS. if you eat only copious amount of fruits and veggies as your carb source you will get, combined with sensible meats, nuts and eggs, all the macro- and micro nutirents AND all the vitamins and minerals you need. use the money you saved for good porno :)
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">use the money you saved for good porno :)</div>

drpierredebs, is there any other kind?
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I agree, whole natural foods are the way to go.

I've researched my supplementation very carefully to counteract what I believe to be insulin resistance. In several cases, they are herbs that have been used in eastern medicine traditions for thousands of years.

What I should do is get my blood sugar levels tested, try each supplement individually, and have my blood sugar tested again afterwards, so I can see what actually works. These things are temporary. When I drop another 50 pounds or so, I plan to taper off their use and see how things go.
 
Why don´t you first determine if you even have any problem with insulin by having your doctor check it before testing ANYTHING. Maybe just give CLEAN eating a chance and let your body fix itself? Look through my thread on my paleo experiment and see what I did for some ideas.
 
again, and I can´t stress this enough, take in ALL your carbs from fruits and veggies and nothing else.

BTW, I have only achieved a 6 pack after 41 years, so don´t think for a minute that you won´t have a six pack. ( Squats, deads and weighted chins or pull downs are the REAL secret to a bitchin sixpack
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crunchs are for turds
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I agree about getting bloodwork done by your doctor. Obviously you are at a risk for lots of things, so it would be a good idea to see exactly where you stand.
I wouldn't worry about trying to fix insulin resistance or any other crap right now. Just barely eat anything, keep doing a lot of activity. Doing a lot of activity should be a priority right now. Don't worry about building muscle mass. Just lift a couple times a week, building mass and strength doesn't matter at this point. What matters is getting your weight down.

At your size, you should be able to drop significant amounts of weight on a weekly basis just by eating less and moving more. If you aren't dropping a lot of weight on a weekly basis, you are still eating too much.

Are you counting calories?

Forget &quot;clean eating&quot; unless that makes it easier for you to stick to a diet. It doesn't matter how clean your food is if you are eating too much of it. Honestly, if I were you, I'd do a PSMF for the next year or so, but I've never been over 15% bodyfat, so maybe my advice isn't the best??
 
Tot what are you on? Lyle'd have a field day - PSMF for a year or so? are you trying to kill this bloke?
IMO he should be switching to more, for want of a better word, wholesome foods; re-educating his palate in the process. PSMF should only be used for the cut from 10%BF to 7%BF and then for only a short duration. Otherwise as Dan Duchaine espoused, BF&gt;15% can and should be dropped by conventional dietting eg iso-cal 33-33-33/zone'ish 40-30-30 ratios.
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The guy needs to teach his body what it is like to eat properly, with proper foods. PSMF is not needed. He could eat twinkies all day with a caloric deficit of 2000 calories and still lose weight, it is just not healthy in the long run. He is also not a body builder or needing to gain muscle fast. In my book, he needs to eat clean, nutrient-dense, foods for the rest of his earthly life.
 
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(the_dark_master @ May 30 2007,17:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tot what are you on? Lyle'd have a field day - PSMF for a year or so? are you trying to kill this bloke?
IMO he should be switching to more, for want of a better word, wholesome foods; re-educating his palate in the process. PSMF should only be used for the cut from 10%BF to 7%BF and then for only a short duration. Otherwise as Dan Duchaine espoused, BF&gt;15% can and should be dropped by conventional dietting eg iso-cal 33-33-33/zone'ish 40-30-30 ratios.
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Uh... that was meant to be joking, guess that's not super apparent online.

But I am serious that he should take an extreme approach and drop his calories drastically. Who cares about maintaining strength when you are over 400 lbs? Losing the fat seems like it would be the most important thing, seeing as how being that big can cause all kinds of things, including eventual death.
So sure, maybe more &quot;wholesome&quot; foods would be a good idea, but what I'm saying is that instead of focusing on eating cleaner foods, he should be focusing on eating drastically less food.
 
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(Totentanz @ May 30 2007,18:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So sure, maybe more &quot;wholesome&quot; foods would be a good idea, but what I'm saying is that instead of focusing on eating cleaner foods, he should be focusing on eating drastically less food.</div>
I agree he needs to drastically cut calories whilst increasing his activity, which is why I feel it better to do it clean and packed with fruits and veggies so that he gets all the macro-micro nutrients and vitamins and minerals.
 
What is PMSF?

I eat 2000 calories per day. Before, I'd probably eat 5000 or more. I can cut it down, but I thought that much lower than this would potentially slow down weight loss? I can do 1000 calories per day, if you guys think I should.

I'm able to lose about 5 pounds per week lifting three times per week, walking an hour per day, and eating 2000 calories per day. I can also walk more, if you guys think that would help, but isn't there some point at which you simply can't do more and need to be patient? What is that point?

I eat at least 3 cups per day of leafy veggies, but am limiting that right now to keep carbs down. In the future, I plan on eating at least 8 servings per day of fruits and vegetables.

My meals before were meat and potatoes type meals, or pasta, but I'd just eat way too much. I'd eat 2000 to 3000 calories in one setting for my evening meal.

I'm doing several of the tricks I've read about (sitting down and eating ONLY at the dinner table, using a smaller plate, using a smaller fork, setting my fork down between bites, eating several smaller meals, turning off the tv, etc. etc.) to help lower food intake, as well as modifying what I eat.

I didn't exercise for years, had a lot of stress in my life, and slept about 5 hours per night for many years. I ended up with Sleep Apnea so that I didn't get good rest for even the few hours I was sleeping. In my sleep study, I woke up on average about 1.5 times per minute in a four hour period.

All of these things add up.

Also, in High School to lose weight, I would eat only an apple or two a day for weeks at a time. I'd also walk 3+ hours per day. I probably fubared my metabolism.

If only someone could have told me to simply start strength training back then.

My primary goal now is to get to a healthier weight and to heal. I also want to build lots of muscle, but I realized that having lots of muscle is pretty pointless if you die of complications related to obesity. I'll make muscle building my primary goal once I am healthy.
 
OK I've got one for JC himself - next time you go shopping go to the aisle where &quot;lard&quot; is stocked. Fill your basket with the equivalent poundage of fat you've lost so far.

Can't believe it?
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