Rotator Cuff

M

Martin Levac

New Member
I started doing some exercises for rotator cuff. I do the last two exercises here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotator_cuff

I also do a torsion movement. I sit, hold a DB in one hand, let it hang and twist back and forth like a corkscrew. At this time, I think it's enough for my purpose but I can't be entirely sure. I'd like to know about alternatives, if any.

Thank you.
 
I put together a list of exercises that would serve to rehabilitate and hypertrophy the ENTIRE shoulder complex. Everything is covered! I am actually going to try this routine out as a SHOULDER SPECIALIZATION PROGRAM. I BOLDED the exercises that will work the rotator cuff/deltoids of the shoulder directly.

1)SHRUGS (upper trapezius)
2)DIPS (pectorals, minor and major)
3)PULLUPS (latissimus dorsi/teres major)
4)PUSHUPS (pectorals/serratus anterior)
5)WIDE-GRIP PULLDOWNS/ROWS (rhomboids/lower trapezius/upper back)
6)DB FLYES/INCLINE FLYES (pectorals/especially clavicle pectorals)
7)DB/BB/CABLE ROWS (latissimus dorsi/middle back)
8)DB FRONT RAISES (anterior deltoid)
9)DB LATERLALS (medial deltoid)
10)DB REAR RAISES (posterior deltoid)
11)DB UPRIGHT EXTERNAL ROTATIONS (teres minor)
12)DB LYING EXTERNAL ROTATIONS (infraspinitus)
13)DB LYING INTERNAL ROTATIONS (subscapularis)
14)DB LYING LATERAL RAISES (supraspinitus)
 
That will do nicely. Thanks to you both.

BTW, Sci, I like your sig. I think I'm going to steal your idea outright. Well, maybe I'll personalize it somewhat.
 
I have a few questions regarding shoulder exercises:

Is behind the neck shoulder press really that bad for you?
If not, is it beneficial to alternate between behind and front press between workouts?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is behind the neck shoulder press really that bad for you?</div>

Yes.
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Dec. 06 2007,21:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is behind the neck shoulder press really that bad for you?</div>

Yes.</div>
I will second that.

I don't understand the reasons why it is bad. But I see no reason to do it anyway. I never had to push an object over my head behind by neck. Nor have I seen anybody do this motion except in the gym. I question the usefulness of the exercise considering that the alternative, the front overhead press, reflects actual everyday motions done by billions of people all over the world.

Unless perhaps you wish to lift the object in every conceivable angle possible? If that's the case, go back to the first argument which is why would you want to perform the movement in the gym if you never have to perform it in your everyday life. If the answer is &quot;just in case&quot;, then you should consider doing a multitude (thousands or millions) of exercises for the same reason. It would be just as legitimate.

Same thing goes for complex machines. I see no legitimate use for those. We don't operate anything like them in our everyday lives anyway. Except, again, in the gym. But we do lift objects from the floor or from shelves or carry objects on our backs or on our shoulders everyday. Machines must have some use but I just don't see any.

On the other hand, do what you want.
 
<div>
(tongzilla @ Dec. 06 2007,18:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have a few questions regarding shoulder exercises:

Is behind the neck shoulder press really that bad for you?
If not, is it beneficial to alternate between behind and front press between workouts?</div>
I think that just like upright rows, it is usually the individual persons bone structure that is the problem, not the exercise itself. It may be fine for some people to perform and not for others.

That being said, I agree with Martin in that I just don't see any good reason to do presses behind your neck.
 
<div>
(Lol @ Nov. 14 2007,17:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There might be something here that's useful to you:

Shoulder Savers: Part I
Shoulder Savers: Part II
Shoulder Savers: Part III</div>
excellent tutorial lol.

i skimmed through it and have to say it made me realise ive been benching wrong for years, which is one reason i have shoulder problems at the moment.

right now im using dumbells which has helped alot, and i am hoping to return to bench shortly.i have been using rotator cuff exercises for a while now and will continue to do so as they have definitley helped.

its time to put some mass on
mad.gif
 
At the PL meet yesterday a guy who had surgery on his shoulder gave me an exersize that I don't think is any good for the shoulders, but he said it rehabbed his.
Military presses with a light weight and supinated grip. I did them today with my cambered bar (my wrists won't take the bb) using just 65 lbs. and 20 rep sets. All I felt was my tri's pumping up, and it's an external rotation, so wouldn't that just make matters worse? I don't get it.
 
Neither do I.

I have been doing rotator cuff exercises since last week. Because of my height I have developed a kyphotic (leaning forward) posture. I have been doing routine stretches to correct this and this has led to, or uncovered, weaknesses in my shoulder girdle's integrity. One muscle I have been training that has not yet been mentioned is the pectoralis minor. In kyphotic individuals this muscle shortens. One of my stretches was to inhale deeply and touch my elbows behind my back to stretch the muscle back out. The end result of this and other exercises was the very disconcerting experience of my humerus' wobbling out of their sockets during every day activities. My reading on the shoulder joint has led me to think of every muscle articulating the shoulder as important to its stability, not just the 4 muscles of the rotator cuff. Here is what I presently do. I am likely going to revise this soon but it has produced results quickly:

Standing internal rotation.
Standing external rotation.
Face pulls (grab a rope with neutral grip, attach to a high pulley, pull it to your eyes)
Dips; doing only the last 1/4 of ROM due to shoulder pain, and **always depressing the scapula all the way down**. This last part requires the pec minor, in addition to the lower fibers of the trapezius. It is the whole point of the exercise for me.
 
Icars,

I learned a lot about benching from that article too. If you haven't seen these two points already, try them out:
1. Keep your eyes locked on a location at the ceiling. Avoid looking at the bar as it moves. --from Starting Strength by Rippetoe
2. Push yourself away from the bar. --from Westside Barbell

There is one statement in the article that I could never grasp:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, keep your wrists under your elbows instead of letting them roll back.</div>

Wrists under my elbows? My wrists are always above my elbows when I bench. How do you bench a bar with your wrists vertically below your elbows? I don't get this.

Because I keep my shoulder blades in like the author suggests, I've thought about adding a serratus anterior targeted lift. The serratus anterior, especially the lower fibers that can be seen, pull the scapula forward. If you keep your scapula retracted during the bench, seems to me the muscle will receive little loading.


As for behind-the-neck pressing. I don't do it. Its a major pain to lean my head forward. The additional external rotation of the humerus means more stress is placed on the anterior compartments of the deltoid (recent analysis has partially rejected the notion of 3 deltoidal heads). Big deal. Do a push press. You'll isolate your clavicular pectoral head and hit the coracobrachialis -- the 4th muscle of the upper arm -- as well. And you'll still get plenty of front delt action. Forget forward raises.

Its time for a study:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Muscles within muscles: the neuromotor control of intra-muscular segments
Journal European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0301-5548
Issue Volume 78, Number 3 / July, 1998
Category ORIGINAL ARTICLE
DOI 10.1007/s004210050410
Pages 219-225
SpringerLink Date Thursday, February 19, 2004

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Authors
J. B. Wickham1, J. M. M. Brown1

1Electromyography Laboratory, Department of Biomedical Science, University of Wollongong, Northfields Avenue, Wollongong, 2522. New South Wales, Australia
Abstract

The aim of this investigation was to anatomically identify, and then determine the function of, individual segments within the human deltoid muscle. The anatomical structure of the deltoid was determined through dissection and/or observation of the shoulder girdles of 11 male cadavers (aged 65-84 years). These results indicate that the deltoid consists of seven anatomical segments (D1-D7) based upon the distinctive arrangement of each segment's origin and insertion. Radiographic analysis of a cadaveric shoulder joint suggested that only the postero-medial segment D7 has a line of action directed below the shoulder joint's axis of rotation. The functional role of each individual segment was then determined utilising an electromyographic (EMG) technique. Seven miniature (1 mm active plate; 7 mm interelectrode distance) bipolar surface electrodes were positioned over the proximal portion of each segment's muscle belly in 18 male and female subjects (18-30 years). EMG waveforms were then recorded during the production of rapid isometric shoulder abduction and adduction force impulses with the shoulder joint in 40 degrees of abduction in the plane of the scapula. Each subject randomly performed 15 abduction and 15 adduction isometric force impulses following a short familiarisation period. All subjects received visual feed back on the duration and amplitude of each isometric force impulse produced via a visual force-time display which compared subject performance to a criterion force-time curve. Movement time was 400 ms (time-to-peak isometric force) at an intensity level of 50% maximal voluntary contraction. Temporal and intensity analyses of the EMG waveforms, as well as temporal analysis of the isometric force impulses, revealed the neuromotor control strategies utilised by the CNS to control the activity of each muscle segment. The results showed that segmental neuromotor control strategies differ across the breadth of the muscle and that individual segments of the deltoid can be identified as having either &quot;prime mover&quot;, &quot;synergist&quot;, &quot;stabiliser&quot; or &quot;antagonist&quot; functions; functional classifications normally associated with whole muscle function. Therefore, it was concluded that the CNS can &quot;fine tune&quot; the activity of at least six discrete segments within the human deltoid muscle to efficiently meet the demands of the imposed motor task.</div>
 
Oh, 3rd pointer I found. Almost forgot:

Avoid slowly descending the bar. This from Louie Simmons of Westside. I saw this Fri. night and haven't had time to try it. I don't know if this means to lower the bar quickly or at a moderate pace. He just said in the video not to lower it &quot;slowly.&quot;
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Forget forward raises.</div>

Did I say clavicular head and coracobrachialis? I meant triceps long head. Front raises get the CH and the CB as they are synergists in humeral flexion which is what a front raise is (as well as a push press).
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ Nov. 14 2007,16:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I started doing some exercises for rotator cuff. I do the last two exercises here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotator_cuff</div>
&quot;The final exercise is the lateral raise with internal rotation (LRIR). Grasping a dumbbell in each hand, the lifter should internally rotate his arm so that his extended thumbs point towards the floor - as if the lifter is emptying a drink into a bin.&quot;

That one is a killer! I think it targets the supraspinauts specifically. After I injured my shoulder, I was doing that lift slowly and painfully with a one pound weight...!
 
<div>
(TunnelRat @ Feb. 18 2008,11:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That one is a killer! I think it targets the supraspinauts specifically. After I injured my shoulder, I was doing that lift slowly and painfully with a one pound weight...!</div>
TR,
How is your shoulder coming along? I've had to stop all pulls (vertical and horizontal) and now I'm temporarily stopping all upper body movements except Lying triceps extensions. Which is the only upper body exercise that doesn't involve my shoulder. I think my problem is in the biceps tendon, hence the pain doing pulldowns.

I'm curious as to what kind of a program you are doing now. I'm assuming that you are still not doing any presses.
 
<div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Feb. 18 2008,15:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">TR,
How is your shoulder coming along? I've had to stop all pulls (vertical and horizontal) and now I'm temporarily stopping all upper body movements except Lying triceps extensions. Which is the only upper body exercise that doesn't involve my shoulder. I think my problem is in the biceps tendon, hence the pain doing pulldowns.

I'm curious as to what kind of a program you are doing now. I'm assuming that you are still not doing any presses.</div>
My vet has me doing a series of exercises using rubber bands and very light (very light!) dumbbells. I do face pulls, internal and external rotations, that awful LRIR I referred to above, front and lateral raises, plus some dumbbell shoulder raises for the serratus.

I'm allowed to do lat pulldowns and shrugs, but no bench or overhead presses. Which is just as well, for, although my strength is improving slowly, my shoulder still hurts and I'm not really able to do benches anyhow...

Rather than a Lying Triceps Extension, which involves the shoulder, I've been doing a modified Skull Crusher, using dumbbells.

If you've got any sort of serious pain that doesn't go away after a couple of weeks, you need to make an appointment with your therapist. Some things don't get better by themselves...
sad.gif
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Dec. 07 2007,15:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is behind the neck shoulder press really that bad for you?</div>

Yes.</div>
Unfrotunately, like most things, it depends.

It depends on how you are built, which predominatly you have no control over (besides teleportation) and how the lift is actually done.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Feb. 18 2008,21:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Martin said touch the elbows behind the back. AHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!!!
Only 18&quot; to go!</div>
Thank you. I thought it was just me...
wow.gif
 
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