Rough draft

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The Madcow Version of Bill Starr’s program centers around:

M:
Squat
Bench
Barbell Row
<Situps and Hypers>

W:
Squat
Military Press
Deadlift
<Situps>

F:
Squat
Bench
Barbell Row
<Dips, Curls, triceps extensions>

So, start this with HST program:

SD

15s
M,W,F:
Squat
Bench
Row
Military Press
DL
Dips

10s
Same

5s
Same, add Bis and Tris

Situps and hypers could be done on T, TH, if at all.

Post 5s:

Post 5s of HST will be the beginning of Madcow. Since we’ve been progressing through HST, the prescribed 5 weeks of Madcow’s progression probably isn’t necessary. So, start two weeks out of your 5RM instead. This will just be a zig–zag in the overall weight progression. Continue the Madcow program until you reach multiple plateaus.

As a strength training progam, Bill Starr (and the Madcow version) seem to be very good. They follow the principles of Load, Frequency, and Progression (albeit weekly, instead of per workout). As long as you don’t hit a plateau right away, there would be no need for SD (the SD from HST has done its job, afterall), so a reasonable amount of hypertrophy should accompany the strength gains.

How does it look? Any tweaks or changes?
 
Interesting, I haven't done a 5x5 prog, but have been comparing to HST since it also seems to be highly recommended. I do have a couple of quick comments...

One, doesn't Madcow do lighter squats on Weds ... the deadlift day? Squats and deads both on HST might be tough, might need to do A/B and alternate them.

Also, I assume that you're talking the Madcow "intermediate" or linear version. The "advanced" or "periodized" 5x5 aims for heavier loading (ie work == weight used times reps time sets) for the ramp up weeks, then continue to progress weights used while cutting workload a lot. This is based on periodization and is supposed to produce "supercompensation". I'm not sure how that would mesh into the end of an HST cycle. However, I think trainees are encouraged to use the linear as long as they can still get gains from it, so I think that's the one you would want to try first.

Good idea, and hopefully some who've done it will come along to report how it worked for them.
 
Yeah, I'm talking intermediate. I haven't studied the advanced version at all. As far as squats and DL on the same day, I think (I have to check) that squats on Wed are reduced volume and/or weight.
 
Just checked, on DL day, there are only 4x5 squats, and the weight used on the 3rd and 4th sets are only the step 3 weight.
 
<div>
(etothepii @ Sep. 07 2006,12:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just checked, on DL day, there are only 4x5 squats, and the weight used on the 3rd and 4th sets are only the step 3 weight.</div>
Yep, have the spreadsheet template open, and that's it.

So, the point being that even though it's using squats and deads both, they're only doubled up on one day, when the squats are lighter. Everyone's different, but most seem to also feel it's tough to combine them in the same workout for HST. So to give a similar emphasis in your HST routine, if doing 3x/week, maybe 2x squat and 1x deadlift. Just a thought.
 
<div>
(Lifting N Tx @ Sep. 07 2006,14:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(etothepii @ Sep. 07 2006,12:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just checked, on DL day, there are only 4x5 squats, and the weight used on the 3rd and 4th sets are only the step 3 weight.</div>
Yep, have the spreadsheet template open, and that's it.

So, the point being that even though it's using squats and deads both, they're only doubled up on one day, when the squats are lighter. Everyone's different, but most seem to also feel it's tough to combine them in the same workout for HST.  So to give a similar emphasis in your HST routine, if doing 3x/week, maybe 2x squat and 1x deadlift. Just a thought.</div>
Yeah, I didn't read your post carefully enough. Personally, I alternate squats and DLs too. But I do nine exercises. I was thinking that perhaps with just 5 to 6 lifts, squats and DLs on the same day might be doable. Maybe just in the 15s and week one of the 10s. Then start alternating.
 
I think only 5 exercises are required

Squat
Bench
Dead
Military press
Bent over row.

Now, you can substitute them with other hard compounds, for example, inclines for bench, chins for Bent rows, or do variations like manta ray squats or dumbell press, use bands and chains, use a belt or not, but essentially, those 5 are all that is required.

I think just 5 sets per session (plus some warm ups) covering these 5 exercises, 3x per week is possible. Volume is relatively low, but if you are squatting and deadlifting every session, then low volume will be all you want to do.

Anyway, I am giving it a go now.

My current version is top set x 3 reps for session 1, 4 reps for session 2 and 5 reps for session 3, then add a little weight and repeat the cycle.

I am more into power than hypertrophy, but maybe after a few weeks I will add some high rep stuff for a break and to give joints a respite.

Obviously there are many ways to set up routines, but these 5 exercises are all you need I think.
 
I think I'm going to end up doing Rippetoe's 3x5 program. It has the big 5 that you mentioned, plus dips and chins on alternating days, thrown in there too. But those are higher rep exercises. I don't think the weight progression is as important on those. The other five are the focus. You add 2.5% to 5% to the working weight each week. I'll probably go with 2.5% as I am still really a newbie.
 
<div>
(etothepii @ Sep. 17 2006,15:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think I'm going to end up doing Rippetoe's 3x5 program. It has the big 5 that you mentioned, plus dips and chins on alternating days, thrown in there too. But those are higher rep exercises. I don't think the weight progression is as important on those. The other five are the focus. You add 2.5% to 5% to the working weight each week. I'll probably go with 2.5% as I am still really a newbie.</div>
There are two writeups on BB.com in which &quot;You add 2.5% to 5% to the working weight each week&quot; was incorrect in Matta114's thread.  I believe he quoted this from the Bill Starr 5x5 routine written by madcow here: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Check out the write-up by kethnaab here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=750551  According to his thread, and supposably the book (I do not have a copy), you want to increase your weight 5-10lbs every workout (assuming you are able to complete all 3 sets of 5 reps).  Once this starts getting hard, you might consider picking up some fractional plates from http://www.ironwoodyfitness.com/fractionals.html

Good luck!  My powertec rack should be here by wed, in which I will be starting the Rippetoe routine next monday
smile.gif



Dave
 
It's also recommended to do front squats on Wed. when deadlifting. I deadlift first though and save the front squats for last. It's worked well, good strength gains with both. The lighter load on the front squat generates less fatigue, especially since I can only front squat 265x5 for 3 sets.
sad.gif
 
Well, I've been using 3x5 as best I can as a newbie to make pretty steady gains. I like it very much. Here's my HST routine leading up to it:

Squat/Deadlift alternating
Inc Bench
Dips
BB row
Pull Ups
Military Press
Skull Crushers
Curls
Situps (once in a while)

With 3x5, it's
A:
Squats
BB Row
Military Press
Accessoriy exercises: Dips, Situps, shrugs.

B:
Squats
Dead Lift
BB Row
Accessories: Chin Ups, Situps, Sometimes Skull Crushers.

On the third workout, I might do a couple other lifts, just for fun.

But as you see, the 3x5 training takes my HST routine, and splits it in two. That's good, since I'm increasing my PR's regularly, and couldn't handle all the exercises in one workout.
 
<div>
(etothepii @ Oct. 25 2006,09:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But as you see, the 3x5 training takes my HST routine, and splits it in two. That's good, since I'm increasing my PR's regularly, and couldn't handle all the exercises in one workout.</div>
I've been thinking about how I'll follow up my 5's. Was considering either transitioning right back into another 5x5, or doing something like the Starting Strength 3x5. Either way, something with a strength focus. Looking at your plan gives me some more ideas, thanks.
 
after the 5 x 5 do a cycle of 3 x 3 ( Stephen Korte Style).
You will explode!
 
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