NY Times Vitamin article

Wedgewod

New Member
April 29, 2003
Vitamins: More May Be Too Many
By GINA KOLATA


A growing number of medical experts are concerned that Americans are overdoing their vitamin consumption. As many as 70 percent of the population is taking supplements, mostly vitamins, convinced that the pills will make them healthier.

But researchers say that vitamin supplements cannot correct for a poor diet, that multivitamins have not been shown to prevent any disease and that it is easy to reach high enough doses of certain vitamins and minerals to actually increase the risk of disease.

No longer, the experts say, are they concerned about vitamin deficits. Those are almost unheard of today, even with the population eating less than ideal diets and skimping on fruits and vegetables. Instead, the concern is with the dangers of vitamin excess.

"There has been a transition from focusing on minimum needs to the reality that today our problem is excess — excess calories and, yes, excesses of vitamins and minerals as well," said Dr. Benjamin Caballero, a member of the Food and Nutrition Board at the National Academy of Sciences and the director of the Center for Human Nutrition at Johns Hopkins University.

Dr. Caballero said that for some supplements, including vitamin A, the difference between the recommended dose and a dose that could lead to bad outcomes like osteoporosis was not large. Popular multivitamins, he added, often contain what could be risky doses.

"Certainly," he said, "by consuming supplements, people can reach that level."

Doctors who once told patients that multivitamins were, at worst, a waste of money now say they are questioning that idea.

"All of a sudden, scientists are rearing back and saying, `Wait a minute, do we really know that we need this and do we really know that we need that?' " said Dr. Ruth Kava, nutrition director at the American Council on Science and Health, a consumer foundation in Manhattan that is in part financed by industry.

With vitamin A in particular, it is easy to step over the edge into a danger zone, said Dr. Joan McGowan, chief of the musculoskeletal diseases branch at the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases.

"You can be eating Total cereal, drinking fortified milk, taking a multivitamin," Dr. McGowan said. "You can get into a situation where you're getting more than you need. Until recently, there was little concern about vitamin A and bone health."

Now, she added, "we may have to rethink the issues."

Similar questions are being raised about other vitamins and minerals, notably iron and vitamins E and C.

Researchers say the questions involve multivitamins taken by healthy people, not specific vitamins or minerals taken by groups with specific needs. Some elderly people, for example, may be deficient in vitamin B12 because they lose their ability to absorb it from foods. People who spend little time outdoors may require vitamin D, which the skin makes when it is exposed to sunlight. Even when older people are in the sun, aging skin loses much of its ability to synthesize the vitamin.

Pregnant women who do not receive enough folic acid, a vitamin in fruits and vegetables that is added to enriched flour, are at increased risk of having babies with neural tube defects. Because the vitamin is needed at the very start of pregnancy, some advocate folic acid supplements for all who might become pregnant, just to be sure they are protected.

For most people, however, the issue is not deficits. Instead, nutrition researchers ask: Do people eating relatively healthy diets with fresh fruits and vegetables and not too many calories or fats benefit from multivitamins or other supplements? Do those whose diets are abysmal, heavy on fast foods and lacking in fruits and vegetables, make up for some deficits if they take multivitamin pills?

Dr. Annette Dickinson, president of the Council for Responsible Nutrition, a group that represents the supplement industry, says 70 percent of Americans sometimes take supplements — usually multivitamins or individual vitamins and minerals — and 40 percent take them regularly.

"Our position," she said, "is that most people, literally most people, would benefit from taking a multivitamin every day. It's insuring adequate and even generous intake of all the nutrients."

The most popular individual supplements are vitamins C and E, said Dr. Robert M. Russell, the director the Human Nutrition Research Center of Agriculture Department at Tufts University, who is head of the Food and Nutrition Board. Scientists once thought those vitamins could help prevent ailments like cancer and heart disease, but rigorous studies found no such effects.

Vitamin E supplements can increase the risk of heart attacks and strokes, and studies of vitamin C supplements consistently failed to show that it had any beneficial effects.

"The two vitamins that are the most not needed are the ones most often taken," Dr. Russell said.

Excess vitamin C is excreted in the urine, but excesses of some other vitamins are stored in fat, where they can build up. Of particular concern, researchers say, is vitamin A. It is found in liver, and small amounts are added to milk. But for most people who are reaching worrisome levels, the main source is supplements, multivitamins, nutrition bars, health drinks and cereals.

Several recent large studies indicate that people with high levels of vitamin A in their blood have a greater risk for osteoporosis. People can easily reach a potentially dangerous level, about five times the recommended dose, by taking vitamins and supplements, nutrition researchers say. Some popular multivitamins run 1,500 micrograms a pill, twice the recommended daily amount and a level that, in one recent study, doubled the risk of bone fractures. Some supplements provide as much as 4,500 micrograms a day, well above the level that the National Academy of Sciences calls an upper limit for safety.

"If you have a good source of vitamin A in your food and you take a supplement with another 100 percent, you can easily reach a level that can accumulate" to one associated with increased risk of osteoporosis, Dr. Caballero said.

Dr. Dickinson said that multivitamin manufacturers were decreasing the vitamin A in their products, but that it might take a year for the reformulated products to appear.

Others warn about overdosing on other vitamins and minerals.

Dr. Richard J. Wood, director of the mineral bioavailability laboratory at Tufts, worries about iron overload, which can increase the risk of heart disease. In a large federal research effort, the Framingham study, Dr. Wood found that 12 percent of the elderly participants had worrisome levels. "Hardly anyone had iron deficiency anemia," he said. "But 16 percent were taking iron-containing supplements."

While readily noting that the proof of a benefit is not in, some researchers said they took multivitamins. They agree with Dr. Joann E. Manson, chief of preventive medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, who takes a multivitamin and recommends it to patients whose diets seem imbalanced.

"I think it's a good form of insurance," Dr. Manson said. "I don't think there's a significant downside. We don't have the evidence yet that it is beneficial."

Dr. Robert H. Fletcher, a professor of ambulatory medicine at Harvard Medical School, also takes multivitamins. For him, the deciding factor was whether he ingested enough folic acid. Studies have suggested that high levels of folic acid can protect against heart disease by lowering levels of another substance, homocysteine. High levels of homocysteine are associated with increased risks of heart disease, but there is no study showing definitively that reducing homocysteine levels protects against heart disease.

So far, the folic acid studies are suggestive, not definitive. But Dr. Fletcher said, "If I were a betting man, I'd bet on it."

But a European study, reported recently at a meeting of the American College of Cardiology, found that folic acid supplements actually made matters worse for heart disease patients. The study, the Folate After Coronary Intervention Trial, involved 626 patients who were having stents inserted into blocked arteries to keep them open. Half were randomly assigned to take folic acid, and the rest took a placebo. Six months later, the arteries of those taking folic acid were significantly narrower than the arteries of those taking a placebo, exactly the opposite of what the investigators had expected.

A previous study, however, had found that folate helped such patients. Dr. Eric Topol, an interventional cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic, said he thought the truth was that it was neither helpful nor harmful for most people. "Over all, the likely explanation is that there is a neutral effect, and these relatively small trials found opposite findings due to the play of chance," he said.

Dr. Topol said B vitamins, like folic acid, "can't be recommended" at this point, except for people with extremely low levels of homocysteine, and even then their value has not been rigorously demonstrated.

Karen Miller-Kovach, chief scientist for Weight Watchers International, has a compromise. She takes a child's multivitamin, with its much lower levels of vitamins and minerals.

"It is virtually impossible to find an adult multivitamin and mineral supplement that is only 100 percent of the R.D.A.," Ms. Miller-Kovach said. "All are 150 percent or so. I worry about getting too much and I worry about imbalances. They put in more of the things that are inexpensive, like B vitamins and things with consumer appeal like vitamin C. The formulas are based on market forces, not nutritional needs."

Others decided against taking the pills.

Dr. Kava, of the American Council on Science and Health, said she abstained. "People ask me what vitamins I take," she said. "I say I don't take any. They look at me askance. They can't believe I'm a nutritionist."

Dr. Caballero also does not take vitamins. "There is no disease I know of that is prevented by multivitamins," he said.

In fact, Dr. Caballero said, typical pills, which contain a variety of minerals as well as vitamins, have ingredients that actually cancel out one another. "Minerals antagonize each other for absorption," he said. "Zinc competes with iron which competes with calcium."

Dr. Caballero also notes that large, rigorous studies that were supposed to show that individual vitamins prevented disease ended up showing the opposite. Those who took the vitamins actually had more of the disease it was meant to prevent.

Two large randomized trials of vitamin A and beta carotene that researchers hoped would show a protective value against cancer found no benefit, and one found that participants who took the supplements had more cancer.

A large study of vitamin E and heart disease found that it did not prevent heart attacks and that people taking it had more strokes.

Another study, of women with heart disease, found that antioxidant vitamins might actually increase the rate of atherosclerosis.

Dr. Caballero said people were deluding themselves if they thought multivitamins could make up for poor diets.

"If you eat junk food every day, vitamins are the least of your problems," he said. "You cannot replace a healthy diet. We don't know what ingredient in a healthy diet is responsible for which condition. We do know that people who consume five servings or more of fruits and vegetables have less disease. But we don't know which ingredient. We tried beta carotene, vitamin E and antioxidants, and they didn't work.

"People are looking for the magic bullet. It does not exist."
 
This article is so blatantly deceptive its hardly worth commenting on:
"A growing number of medical experts are concerned that
Americans are overdoing their vitamin consumption"
yes we see thousands of people dropping dead from overdosing every day
"But researchers say that vitamin supplements cannot correct for a poor diet"
No kidding?
"multivitamins have not been shown to prevent any disease"
a specific multivitamin, no... but individual vitamins in said multivitamins have.
"easy to reach high enough doses of certain vitamins and minerals to actually increase the risk of disease"
Yes, if you take too much of ANYTHING what do you expect happens?
"No longer, the experts say, "
What bloody experts are we talking about here?
(note: the american council on science and health is not pro-consumer, It is a radical anti-supplement organization.)
"are they concerned about vitamin deficits"
can you say folic acid and spina bifida?
"Certainly," he said, "by consuming supplements, people can reach that level."
Certainly, I say, by consuming ANYTHING people can reach that level.
"All of a sudden, scientists are rearing back and saying, `Wait a minute, do we really know that we need this and do we really know that we need that?'
speaking of rear...
"People are looking for the magic bullet. It does not exist."
The authors suffer from magic thinking, reason does not exist for them.
Lets take a small look at some things Vitamin E does:
from
http://www.lef.org/prod_desc/item00062.html?GO.X=7\&GO.Y=7
The term “vitamin E” refers to a family of eight related, lipid-soluble, antioxidant compounds widely distributed in plants. The tocopherol and tocotrienol subfamilies are each composed of alpha, beta, gamma and delta vitamers having unique biological effects. Different ratios of these compounds are found in anatomically different parts of a plant. For example, the green parts of a plant contain mostly alpha tocopherol and the seed germ and bran contain mostly tocotrienols.
When this family of compounds was first discovered and determined to be essential for health, a standardized test for its activity was devised for which the members of the family were rated for their biological activity. In one test, alpha tocopherol scored highest and was rated 100% with all others having lower ratings. In accordance with this rating, alpha tocopherol was deemed to be the essential compound and was called vitamin E. One International Unit (IU) of vitamin E activity is the activity under this rating of 1 mg of the plant-derived form of alpha tocopherol.
Since the original rating method was established, many additional important biological effects of these compounds have been discovered and many nutritional scientists now consider that rating method to be incomplete. For example, by the original rating, gamma tocopherol was only 10 to 30% as strong as alpha tocopherol, yet recent studies have shown it to be essential for maintaining the health of cell membranes, especially if alpha tocopherol is being supplemented. New studies continue to elucidate the unique benefits of individual members of the vitamin E family. For example, tocotrienols have been shown to lower cholesterol, prevent LDL oxidation, and reduce atherosclerotic plaque formation more effectively than tocopherols. For these and other reasons, the original definition of vitamin E has been enhanced to include all eight family members and the related compounds that convert to them in the body.
Vitamin E compounds are usually produced and made available in esterified form as alpha tocopheryl acetate or alpha tocopheryl succinate. Neither of these forms has any antioxidant activity until converted to alpha tocopherol in the body, but they are much more stable with respect to storage time and temperature than the unesterified forms. Moreover, while the acetate form is rapidly activated within the body, activation of the succinate form is slower. The succinate form appears to access and benefit areas of the tissues that are unavailable to the other forms. For this reason, there is a tendency to regard alpha tocopherol succinate (VES) as a distinctly different and beneficial compound. VES appears to have longer half-life in the body, less effect on blood clotting, and does not interfere with vitamin A and K absorption. It is also more beneficial for cancer therapy according to several published studies.
Serious vitamin takers prefer cold-water dispersible dry powder vitamin E supplements in the form of alpha tocopheryl succinate or acetate because the cold-water dispersible forms are efficiently absorbed even when taken on an empty stomach or with a low-fat meal. The non-cold water dispersible (oil) forms of vitamin E may be poorly absorbed unless taken with several grams of fats or oils.
Cold-water dispersible vitamin E is twice as expensive as soybean oil E-acetate, but the cold-water dispersible forms are more efficiently absorbed. Both “acetate” and “succinate” vitamin E can come from natural sources. The importance to the consumer is how well the vitamin E absorbs into the bloodstream. Cold-water dispersible vitamin E, whether in a succinate or acetate form, always comes in a white dry powder, while noncold-water dispersible natural and synthetic acetate forms of vitamin E are always in a thick brown oil.
While 100 IU or more of supplemental vitamin E a day has been shown to reduce the risk of heart attacks in healthy people, those with pre-existing coronary artery disease often take 800 to 1600 IU a day based on the pioneering work of the Shute brothers in the mid 1940s.
One or more members of the vitamin E family may also:
Maintain cell membrane integrity and reduce cellular aging
Inhibit the potentially damaging peroxynitrite radical
Inhibit melanoma cell growth in mice
Prevent abnormal blood clotting
Synergize with vitamin A to protect the lungs against pollutants
Protect nervous system and retina
Lower the risk of ischemic and coronary heart disease
Lower the risk of certain kinds of cancer
Protect immune function
Reduce the risk of Alzheimer’s disease
Caution:
If you are taking anti-clotting medication, consult with your doctor before taking this product.
Ingestion of total vitamin E products in excess of 1200 IU daily may interfere with absorption and metabolism of vitamins A and K.

also see
Why Some "E"s Fail To Work

http://www.lef.org/magazin....&GO.Y=7
 
Persuant to Coyote's post,

The LEF has other dosing protocols that can prevent other things beside spina bifida. An interesting and educating site, no doubt.

Another site worth visiting would be: www.drumlib.com
This site gives good explanation as to the virtues of the EC stack amongst other necessary supplementation measures required for good health.

Godspeed, happy supplementing and happy HSTing :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Coyote @ May 01 2003,6:54)]no... but individual vitamins in said multivitamins have.
Yes, but there is no research showing that vitamin supplementation produces the same effect. In the studies that showed reduced risk of disease, the vitamins were from food not supplements (not to differentiate the vitamin from its natural host, but there are things in food that supplements do not have)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]can you say folic acid and spina bifida?
increased risk of NTDs happen before deficiency occurs.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Certainly, I say, by consuming ANYTHING people can reach that level.
reaching the upper intakes of vitamin a is extremely difficult, unless you go out of your way and eat whale liver or sumfin. But for normally available foods, its not easy, and can certainly not be achieved by consuming anything.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Why Some "E"s Fail To Work
http://www.lef.org/magazin....&GO.Y=7
hmm, people hate the FDA?USDA and the likes because they are all anti-supplement yada yada. But are quite willing to believe a pro-supplement site, that sells the stuff. Lets see, how to sell more supplements in the face of everyone else in the world being able to sell the stuff. Ah, lets differentiate our product and claim all the rest are rubbish.
Compared to some of the stuff LEF puts thru their 'articles', Biotest looks honest.
 
Here is another interesting article that talks to more supplementation by a professor I study under that was just featured in LEF magazine.
Bruce Ames recommends metabolic tune-up
In a supplement to the Journal of Nutrition (www.nutrition.org), published in the journal’s May 2003 issue, University of California researcher Bruce N Ames PhD recommends an optimum intake of mircronutrients and metabolites to tune up metabolism and increase health at a low cost. The article, which was presented as part of the eleventh International Symposium on Trace Elements in Man and Animals, lists DNA damage, genetic diseases, and mitochondrial oxidative decay that occurs with age as conditions that can be prevented and treated with nutrition. Dr Ames believes that the prevention of subtle metabolic damage as opposed to overt deficiency-induced disease states requires a greater intake of nutrients than that recommended by the current RDA.
Ames noted that deficiencies of vitamins B6, B12, niacin, folic acid, C, E and the minerals iron and zinc damage DNA in a way similar to that of radiation by causing single and double strand breaks and oxidative lesions. He estimates that half the population may have a deficiency in at least one of the above nutrients.
A major contributor to the aging process is mitochondrial decay, that has been reversed in part in animal studies with high levels of lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine, which are normal mitochondrial metabolites. In addition to restoring mitochondrial function, acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid provide an increase in ambulatory activity and cognition in the aging animals studied.
An estimated one third of all genetic mutations result in the gene’s corresponding enzyme having a decreased binding affinity for a coenzyme, thereby lowering its rate of reaction. High doses of the B vitamin component of the coenzyme will elevate its levels and partly restore the activity of the enzyme. There are 50 human genetic diseases caused by defective enzymes that can be treated in this manner.
In addition, Dr Ames hypothesizes that micronutrient deficiency may leave people feeling hungry after eating what should be a sufficient amount of calories, causing people to overeat, and contributing to the obesity pandemic. He writes, “It is inexcusable that anyone in the world should have an inadequate intake of a vitamin or mineral, at great cost to that person’s health, when a year’s supply of a daily multivitamin/mineral pill as insurance against deficiencies costs less than a few packs of cigarettes.”
:)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]In addition, Dr Ames hypothesizes that micronutrient deficiency may leave people feeling hungry after eating what should be a sufficient amount of calories, causing people to overeat, and contributing to the obesity pandemic.

I liked what he said until I read this :D. I guess another one who found how to control hunger and fight obesity.... [sigh]
 
Isnt it strange that taking a multivitamin doesnt cause weight loss. And the fact that overweight people are probbaly getting more vitamins/minerals than a normal weight person (increased calorie intake)
 
If thats the quality of information that you think 'kicks @$$' you must like biased sources of information.

Lets make a small start on the list of studies that "show" what they want

Jama 2002;287:3127 - a single article presented in the JAMA doesnt mean that the AMA has changed their position (this is the role of 'positional statements')
And a paper that says folate in some people (and based on old research (ie NHANES III) all this has changed since the extreme fortification program. Also adding vitamin D especially in those afraid of outdoors (and elderly) and Vitamin B12 in elderly.
Just because small sections of hte population require additional vitamins, doesnt mean that everyone does.

The entire article was one sided, to highlight their views. Funnily enough, they also sell supplements, so their report is not really going to be 'independant'.
How come they dont directly address any of the research that shows the absolute opposite? that is what true critical analysis of research is about.
 
Yes LEF is biased, and so am I, they sell supplements and so of course their are opinions are wrong, oh wait HSN sells supplements as well, they must also be wrong.

The only thing I "require" is for the gubment to get out of my @$$ and stop telling me what I can and cannot do, and what I "require" and don't "require".

I understand the E.U has finally banned most vitamins, and so Europe is now a MUCH safer place, so I suppose one could move there if one feels it makes one more cozy and warm and safe from all those big bad vitamins, thank god they have narrowly averted an atrocity of immense proportions!

I have no patience or energy to argue against those that worship the nannystate, the whining ninnies will always get the last word.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I have no patience or energy to argue against those that worship the nannystate, the whining ninnies will always get the last word.

Hmmm.... obviously the vitamins did nothing to help your energy levels... perhaps switching to decaf would help ? :D

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I understand the E.U has finally banned most vitamins

EU has done what ? Where do you get your info from ?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Coyote @ May 16 2003,4:14)]Yes LEF is biased, and so am I, they sell supplements and so of course their are opinions are wrong, oh wait HSN sells supplements as well, they must also be wrong.
The only thing I "require" is for the gubment to get out of my @$$ and stop telling me what I can and cannot do, and what I "require" and don't "require".
I understand the E.U has finally banned most vitamins, and so Europe is now a MUCH safer place, so I suppose one could move there if one feels it makes one more cozy and warm and safe from all those big bad vitamins, thank god they have narrowly averted an atrocity of immense proportions!
I have no patience or energy to argue against those that worship the nannystate, the whining ninnies will always get the last word.
Of course their opinions are not wrong.
But, because of their one sided opinion, you assume everythign the government does is to stop you doing what you want.
Funnily enough, all the article was based around is that several scientists were worried about the increasing prevalence of toxicity from supplements. Nothing in the entire article said anything about banning supplements. The government creates the new RDAs to include a safe upper limit, especially for certain vitamins like vit A, D etc, because excesses can be toxic, they are NOT individual recommendations, they are population based goals. If the average population reaches figures close to the upper recommendation, the amount of toxicity cases will increase, whih means something has to be done, especially if its a vitamin thats included in fortification etc.

I know certain people like to think supplements are going to cure everything, and this view is reinforced by biased articles the likes of LEF produces. LEF will never produce a unbiased article, because it will affect their sales. Funnily enough, bryan only sells 2 basic products, protein and creatine. One of which is food, and the other is a supplemnet with more positive research than ANY vitamin supplement out there.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]EU has done what ? Where do you get your info from ?
obviously from LEF :D
 
I cannot defend LEF as I dont represent them
but take a peek at this

http://www.life-enhancement.com/LE/article_template.asp?ID=391

http://www.healthfreedommovement.com/eu_legislation.htm
or
http://www.healthfreedommovement.com/news_0805.htm
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But, because of their one sided opinion, you assume everythign the government does is to stop you doing what you want.
How can anyone respond to such nonsensical and overbroad ad homonym attack assertions
There are five types of ad hominem.
1. Abusive ad hominem is just an insult. Example: "You are a idiot, case closed."
2. Tu Quoque ad hominem (meaning "you too") is using two wrongs to make a right. Example: "Don't blame me for misquoting sources because you have misquoted sources too!"
3. Circumstantial ad hominem attacks the circumstances around other
believers. Example: "Suicide bombers think they're right too, so you must be a terrorist."
4. Genetic ad hominem attacks the source of a belief. Example:
"Widespread healthcare originally derives from socialism."
5. Poisoning the well is a pre-emptive attack before the argument is made. Example: "Don't trot out your tired old position again, like I know you will, because it never convinces anybody
 
Are you trying to convince me that "EU has banned most vitamins" (your words) based on the absurd claims of HFM, a 'non profit' (ha-ha-ha) organization sponsored by vitamin manufacturers ? Well, then I guess all the vitamins & supplements I sell in my pharmacy must be placebo and I don't know it. People in EU can buy lots of things without prescription, certainly much more than what they can in the US.

Where is the exact directive that HFM refers to ?
Name a few of the vitamins that were banned

And I will throw it back to you:
How can anyone respond to such nonsensical and overbroad ad homonym attack assertions
 
My bad, the laws have been passed, but haven't been implemented yet
http://www.ceri.com/ed-rath.htm
why am I discussing this with a Subject anyways
can you get Androstenedione anymore (for example)?
and please no more of this "attack the messenger ignore the merits" diversion
yet another
http://www.life-enhancement.com/LE/article_template.asp?ID=115
for your amusement:
About the Authors
Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw are two of the world's leading independent experts in anti-aging research and brain biochemistry. Durk was trained as a physicist at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) and graduated with enough credits for degrees in biology and psychology as well. Sandy is a biochemist with a degree from UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles). Over the last 25 years, Pearson & Shaw have consulted for leading international pharmaceutical firms such as Sandoz and Hoffmann-LaRoche and NASA (Durk).
(however they sell suppliments and therefore are "wrong")
Everyone (berks included):
try a google search on +Codex +Alimentarius +threat
 
They have not and are not banning ANY vitamins, and the link you provide does not even suggest that they are.

They are establishing standards across the EU, and they are banning the use of advertising claims to sell supplements. There is currently a serious problem in EU countries and potential EU countries -- as here -- especially regarding the hawking of diet aids. The Codex Alimentarius is old; try searching simply on Codex Alimentarius, and you'll see it's the World Health Organization's equivalent of the FDA. . .
 
For your information and just off the top of my head, the full line of the following supplements companies is available here in Greece (and in almost every EU country):

Chemical Nutrition - M Double You - EAS - Sledge Hammer - Inko Spor - Met-Rx - Lanes - Solgar - Health Aid - Scitec - Prolab - Optimum Nutrition - Twinlab - ########## - Nature's Best - MRM - Max Muscle - AST....

.... and about 50 more.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]can you get Androstenedione anymore (for example)

Probably from 10 different manufacturers. But few do, because they can get real testosterone without prescription here (this does not happen all over EU, but Androstenedione is certainly available everywhere)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Coyote @ May 17 2003,6:58)]I cannot defend LEF as I dont represent them
but take a peek at this
And they show what?

I am not attacking LEF, I am just pointing out their biases. When you take a (long) unbiased look at the origonal research, most of the LEF stuff is utterly optimisitic in terms of what vitamins will do for you.

In most cases, vitamins will offer nil to very little benefit. In some cases, there can also be toxicity.

In terms of freedom to do what you want with your body, well unfortuantely nobody really lives in a free world. I mean, sure I should be allowed to smoke if I want, but when I get cancer, I am costing others, not myself.
As more and more information like what LEF pushes get out, certain parts of the population will start taking more and more vitamins, providing a steady stream of hospital visits etc from long term effects of excesses of vitamins, costing you money (thru taxes, health insurance etc). Unless people are actually aware of potential negative effects, they will continue along the normal lines of 'its natural, it cant hurt me'.
Sensible people who take large amounts of certain vitamins, and smaller amounts of potential negative vitamins (because they know what excess can do) are few and far between.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ](however they sell suppliments and therefore are "wrong")
Just because people have qualifications, doesnt mean they are not biased.
I know plenty of highly qualified people who have biases against different things.
 
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