5's specialization question
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Fausto
HST Expert
To be quite specific one has to say that for hypertrophy it is better to go for 3 x 5 as the additional 1 x 10 would have to be lesser weight, however it can be used as a further stimulant to induce growth, the so called metabolic inducer!
Personally I only use the technique with some isolations (the few that I do), and some other specialization techniques.
You'd be better off reading the "pimp my HST e-book" by Jules as he covers specilaization is quite some detail.
Personally I only use the technique with some isolations (the few that I do), and some other specialization techniques.
You'd be better off reading the "pimp my HST e-book" by Jules as he covers specilaization is quite some detail.
I would either stick to 1 set or do 2 sets a push. 1 set is really all you need to gain muscle, especially when hitting failure on your max day. There is no way that you can perform 3 sets to failure. Either your form will drop and you will injury yourself, or you will have to lower the weight, making it less effective and counter productive.
If you want to do more sets try for the lighter days doing more sets, and for the heavier days less sets...
so say:
mon - 3 sets
wed - 3 sets
fri - 2 sets
mon - 2 sets
wed - 1 sets
fri - 1 sets
If you really wanted to do another set with the max day, you could do rest-pause training. This is where you would lift your weight again until failure, lower the weight, and then immediatly perform to failure again, doing this until you reach your desired reps.
so say if you max out at 300x5 for deadlift, and youve just done 1 set. rest pause training would look something like this:
300x1
280x2
250x2
Be careful though, this if a very taxing way of training and should only be used occasionaly.
If you want to do more sets try for the lighter days doing more sets, and for the heavier days less sets...
so say:
mon - 3 sets
wed - 3 sets
fri - 2 sets
mon - 2 sets
wed - 1 sets
fri - 1 sets
If you really wanted to do another set with the max day, you could do rest-pause training. This is where you would lift your weight again until failure, lower the weight, and then immediatly perform to failure again, doing this until you reach your desired reps.
so say if you max out at 300x5 for deadlift, and youve just done 1 set. rest pause training would look something like this:
300x1
280x2
250x2
Be careful though, this if a very taxing way of training and should only be used occasionaly.
I disagree that one set is enough. It depends on your conditioning. One set might be enough, but it isn't necessarily. More conditioned lifters will benefit from multiple sets versus just one set.
I prefer 3 or more sets during the 5s, personally and find that works best for me.
I prefer 3 or more sets during the 5s, personally and find that works best for me.
Not when going to failure. The conditioning dosent matter because the principle is the same... lift the weight until muscle failure. The only thing that changes is the amount of weight that is being lifted. Thus failure can be achieved in one set, no matter what the level of the lifter.
I agree with the days where failure is not reached, although saying that I would probably only do 2 sets for compunds and 1 set for isolations.
I agree with the days where failure is not reached, although saying that I would probably only do 2 sets for compunds and 1 set for isolations.
Fausto
HST Expert
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I disagree that one set is enough.</div>
What can I say! Tot is right again! I have tried this approach before and had no gains at all. The more conditioned you are, the more work you need to do to get gains, to a limit of course!
WEBBER
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">where do you find the pimp my HST e-book???</div>
If you really cannot find it here I'll sned you a copy e-mail me at faustos@aspenpharma.com
Jv should actually fix that, I'll let him know.
What can I say! Tot is right again! I have tried this approach before and had no gains at all. The more conditioned you are, the more work you need to do to get gains, to a limit of course!
WEBBER
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">where do you find the pimp my HST e-book???</div>
If you really cannot find it here I'll sned you a copy e-mail me at faustos@aspenpharma.com
Jv should actually fix that, I'll let him know.
<div>
(Fausto @ Aug. 29 2006,09:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What can I say! Tot is right again! I have tried this approach before and had no gains at all. The more conditioned you are, the more work you need to do to get gains, to a limit of course</div>
What do you mean you have tried this approach? 1 set throughout the cycle, or 1 set for the maxes.
You say that the more work you need to get gains. But with a failure lift, one set is all the work possible.
Say if you deadlift 300x5, and this is ur max failure point. There is no way that you can repeat this again in the next set. You would have to either do rest-pause training, or lower the weight to say 280. But if you did lower the weight, then this wouldnt be lifting to your full potential and would merely be fatiguing the muscle, leading to overtraining, therefore being counter productive.... Think about it. No matter what the condition of the lifter. He can still reach failure within one set. The only differnece is that he can lift more and recover quicker.
(Fausto @ Aug. 29 2006,09:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What can I say! Tot is right again! I have tried this approach before and had no gains at all. The more conditioned you are, the more work you need to do to get gains, to a limit of course</div>
What do you mean you have tried this approach? 1 set throughout the cycle, or 1 set for the maxes.
You say that the more work you need to get gains. But with a failure lift, one set is all the work possible.
Say if you deadlift 300x5, and this is ur max failure point. There is no way that you can repeat this again in the next set. You would have to either do rest-pause training, or lower the weight to say 280. But if you did lower the weight, then this wouldnt be lifting to your full potential and would merely be fatiguing the muscle, leading to overtraining, therefore being counter productive.... Think about it. No matter what the condition of the lifter. He can still reach failure within one set. The only differnece is that he can lift more and recover quicker.
And to add to my last post. If anything, the more conditioned you are THE LESS work you have to do. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but the human body can have a strength increase of up to 300%, yet it can only have a speed of recovery increase of around 80%.
This therefore means that although a conditioned lifter can lift more weight, their CNS will take longer to recover in relation to how far each has increased...... if you get my drift.
This therefore means that although a conditioned lifter can lift more weight, their CNS will take longer to recover in relation to how far each has increased...... if you get my drift.
cluelessgoon
New Member
I gotta agree with Jonny here, I've tried multiple sets in the 5s (done 3 cycles now) but by the end, if you can do more than one set, then there was more room for load. HOWEVER... I don't carry on with the negatives etc... I can see how it's possible to keep some in the tank for the negative or sub 5 phase by doing less load and more volume in the 5s.
Maybe it's personal. I don't respond to high volume all that well, in fact I just finished 6 weeks of 10x3 training (10 sets of 3) and although it was great, I still have sore elbows and knees 2 months after.
Maybe it's personal. I don't respond to high volume all that well, in fact I just finished 6 weeks of 10x3 training (10 sets of 3) and although it was great, I still have sore elbows and knees 2 months after.
If you do 3 x 5 during 5s it's not really higher volume during is it? What you have done is progressed the load but kept the volume about the same during the cycle. You do really need some sort of work-done progression as well as a load progression. Dropping down to just one max load failure set is not going to be enough work for that final 5s w/o but it will help with any strength gains that cycle.
I personally find that for the big lifts I always avoid failure anyway (eg. squats and deads) as I think it is better to cluster reps when you get to that stage so you always lift safely. Another thing I have tried during 5s is to add in a set of my 10RM load after the 5s and do as many reps as I can but still avoiding failure. The load feels light and manageable by comparison but it's really hard to grind out 10 reps (and often not possible if you are close to 5RM loads for the previous sets).
For post 5s I keep incrementing loads each w/o where possible so that I either find my new 5RM loads (eg. squats and deads) or work past it if negs are an option (eg. dips and chins). I always try to get 15 reps at this stage but I also like to add in a set of 10RMs if I am feeling up to it too. Sometimes when I am near a new 5RM load for deads I only do two sets with the new load but I also do an extra set with my previous 5RM. Again, I may add in a 10RM set too. As you can guess, the post 5s are a lot of fun!
I personally find that for the big lifts I always avoid failure anyway (eg. squats and deads) as I think it is better to cluster reps when you get to that stage so you always lift safely. Another thing I have tried during 5s is to add in a set of my 10RM load after the 5s and do as many reps as I can but still avoiding failure. The load feels light and manageable by comparison but it's really hard to grind out 10 reps (and often not possible if you are close to 5RM loads for the previous sets).
For post 5s I keep incrementing loads each w/o where possible so that I either find my new 5RM loads (eg. squats and deads) or work past it if negs are an option (eg. dips and chins). I always try to get 15 reps at this stage but I also like to add in a set of 10RMs if I am feeling up to it too. Sometimes when I am near a new 5RM load for deads I only do two sets with the new load but I also do an extra set with my previous 5RM. Again, I may add in a 10RM set too. As you can guess, the post 5s are a lot of fun!
scientific muscle
New Member
<div>
(Jonny @ Aug. 29 2006,10:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And to add to my last post. If anything, the more conditioned you are THE LESS work you have to do. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but the human body can have a strength increase of up to 300%, yet it can only have a speed of recovery increase of around 80%.
This therefore means that although a conditioned lifter can lift more weight, their CNS will take longer to recover in relation to how far each has increased...... if you get my drift.</div>
This is bassackwards! Sorry jonny, I don't know where you read this but the more trained you are, the more volume (sets) you need. And there is no need to train to absolute failure. Stopping a set just short of failure can help the CNS from becoming fatigued, so recovery won't take so long. Just because your strength increases 300% doesn't mean your recovery time increases that much! And the 80% increases in recovery ability is why you need more total workload to induce an adaptation, which is why beginners grow well on one set, but advanced lifters either need more sets or at least one set, but a few different exercises per bodypart in order to give the muscles more workload.
Burn the mike mentzer books!
the guy had me hood-winked for years, and I have read almost EVERYTHING he ever published in print. I even agreed with it for years, but the truth is, none of his theories are based on real science, it is all based on 'logic' or 'reason'. He avoids scientific research because scientific research basically disproves most of his theories on exercise.
(Jonny @ Aug. 29 2006,10:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And to add to my last post. If anything, the more conditioned you are THE LESS work you have to do. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but the human body can have a strength increase of up to 300%, yet it can only have a speed of recovery increase of around 80%.
This therefore means that although a conditioned lifter can lift more weight, their CNS will take longer to recover in relation to how far each has increased...... if you get my drift.</div>
This is bassackwards! Sorry jonny, I don't know where you read this but the more trained you are, the more volume (sets) you need. And there is no need to train to absolute failure. Stopping a set just short of failure can help the CNS from becoming fatigued, so recovery won't take so long. Just because your strength increases 300% doesn't mean your recovery time increases that much! And the 80% increases in recovery ability is why you need more total workload to induce an adaptation, which is why beginners grow well on one set, but advanced lifters either need more sets or at least one set, but a few different exercises per bodypart in order to give the muscles more workload.
Burn the mike mentzer books!
the guy had me hood-winked for years, and I have read almost EVERYTHING he ever published in print. I even agreed with it for years, but the truth is, none of his theories are based on real science, it is all based on 'logic' or 'reason'. He avoids scientific research because scientific research basically disproves most of his theories on exercise.
<div>
(Jonny @ Aug. 29 2006,09:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not when going to failure. The conditioning dosent matter because the principle is the same... lift the weight until muscle failure. The only thing that changes is the amount of weight that is being lifted. Thus failure can be achieved in one set, no matter what the level of the lifter.
I agree with the days where failure is not reached, although saying that I would probably only do 2 sets for compunds and 1 set for isolations.</div>
Does HST specifically say that you should hit failure on your rep max day?
How often do you hit failure on your rep max day?
Personally, I am ALWAYS stronger by the time I hit my rep max, unless I am cutting calories way back. If you aren't gaining significant strength by the time you get to your rep max day, maybe you aren't doing enough sets.
Yes, there are studies showing that one set is as effective as multiple sets. No, these studies aren't ironclad and they don't necessarily apply to HST anyway, since those studies were looking at strength and not hypertrophy.
But in the end, you have to figure out what works for you - just like Bryan says. Add more volume if you need it - cut back volume if you can't handle it.
(Jonny @ Aug. 29 2006,09:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not when going to failure. The conditioning dosent matter because the principle is the same... lift the weight until muscle failure. The only thing that changes is the amount of weight that is being lifted. Thus failure can be achieved in one set, no matter what the level of the lifter.
I agree with the days where failure is not reached, although saying that I would probably only do 2 sets for compunds and 1 set for isolations.</div>
Does HST specifically say that you should hit failure on your rep max day?
How often do you hit failure on your rep max day?
Personally, I am ALWAYS stronger by the time I hit my rep max, unless I am cutting calories way back. If you aren't gaining significant strength by the time you get to your rep max day, maybe you aren't doing enough sets.
Yes, there are studies showing that one set is as effective as multiple sets. No, these studies aren't ironclad and they don't necessarily apply to HST anyway, since those studies were looking at strength and not hypertrophy.
But in the end, you have to figure out what works for you - just like Bryan says. Add more volume if you need it - cut back volume if you can't handle it.
Peak_Power
New Member
I gotta agree with tot, fausto and scientific muscle, coming from my own experiences, and also they are talking from experience, not logic or pseudo-scientific basis. Sure science and logic has a basis in HST, but its more about what works and gets results. Both tot and fausto have found what works for them through experience, talking about how the body should work doesn't stand up to what works in real life. No offence intended.
9to5lifter
New Member
In the HST FAQ e-book it is clearly stated that conditioned lifters generally need to do more in order to grow (compared to newcomers). I believe 1 set can be fine for new lifters, but conditioned lifters in general will need more sets (more TUT) to achieve the same hypertrophic response.
1 set taken to failure is NOT always enough to induce hypertrophy. Actually, failure has nothing to do with hypertrophy. Instead, hypertrophy is directly related to the load (and TUT) you are using and the relative conditioning of the muscle at the time this load is applied. Reaching failure doesn't guarantee that you have done all that is needed to grow. As SM said, these are old HIT theories. You need to understand that the connective tissue (which protects the muscle) can reach a state where even a set of your absolute 5RM taken to failure will not be able to cause significant microtrauma and stimulate growth.
The difference between newbies and veteran lifters is years of RBE. Unfortunately, some protection (connective tissue) seems to last for very long. 1-2 weeks of SD aren't enough to revert all the changes that have taken place over years of training. This doesn't mean that SDing is useless. It is useful and it can revert some of the adaptations, but nobody said that 12 days of rest will make you a complete newbie. And that is why conditioned lifters in general need to do more to support continued growth.
Regards,
Dimitris
1 set taken to failure is NOT always enough to induce hypertrophy. Actually, failure has nothing to do with hypertrophy. Instead, hypertrophy is directly related to the load (and TUT) you are using and the relative conditioning of the muscle at the time this load is applied. Reaching failure doesn't guarantee that you have done all that is needed to grow. As SM said, these are old HIT theories. You need to understand that the connective tissue (which protects the muscle) can reach a state where even a set of your absolute 5RM taken to failure will not be able to cause significant microtrauma and stimulate growth.
The difference between newbies and veteran lifters is years of RBE. Unfortunately, some protection (connective tissue) seems to last for very long. 1-2 weeks of SD aren't enough to revert all the changes that have taken place over years of training. This doesn't mean that SDing is useless. It is useful and it can revert some of the adaptations, but nobody said that 12 days of rest will make you a complete newbie. And that is why conditioned lifters in general need to do more to support continued growth.
Regards,
Dimitris
Fausto
HST Expert
Jonny
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">lift the weight until muscle failure.</div>
That is the problem, HST does not support this type of lifting, to me that is only and I mean only done last rep of each set in the last week, that way I can bet your bottom dollar that I can do it 3 x without a flinch!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What do you mean you have tried this approach? 1 set throughout the cycle, or 1 set for the maxes.</div>
1 Set thorughout the cycle, it sucked...but I was an HST beginner then...did not understand things as I do now!
Well, judging from what the other guys are saying, you should be able to see reasoning with this argument. One thing I must add, it is not quite "kosher" to have these arguments on such a thread as this as it ends up confusing the person who asked the question
This is a typical HIT vs. HST argument and granted it can be discussed but should have been on another forum and as start thread so as to cover only that!
My suggestion, read the HST FAQ-ebook as all the reasonable arguments are there!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">lift the weight until muscle failure.</div>
That is the problem, HST does not support this type of lifting, to me that is only and I mean only done last rep of each set in the last week, that way I can bet your bottom dollar that I can do it 3 x without a flinch!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What do you mean you have tried this approach? 1 set throughout the cycle, or 1 set for the maxes.</div>
1 Set thorughout the cycle, it sucked...but I was an HST beginner then...did not understand things as I do now!
Well, judging from what the other guys are saying, you should be able to see reasoning with this argument. One thing I must add, it is not quite "kosher" to have these arguments on such a thread as this as it ends up confusing the person who asked the question
This is a typical HIT vs. HST argument and granted it can be discussed but should have been on another forum and as start thread so as to cover only that!
My suggestion, read the HST FAQ-ebook as all the reasonable arguments are there!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That is the problem, HST does not support this type of lifting, to me that is only and I mean only done last rep of each set in the last week, that way I can bet your bottom dollar that I can do it 3 x without a flinch! </div>
On the last day of each set range you are supposed to lift your max weight for say 15, 10 or 5 reps.... this means that the 10th or 5th rep is your failure point. Which therefore means that HST does train to failure. And to train to failure... or your max.. means that you cannot lift anymore. To do 3 sets of max weight is impossible. Obviously you must not be lifting to your full potential, come the max weights. 3x max weight for 3 sets is laughable. If your doing it propoerly you shouldnt be able to lift the muscle or 2 minutes... never mind do another 2 sets of the same weight.
On the last day of each set range you are supposed to lift your max weight for say 15, 10 or 5 reps.... this means that the 10th or 5th rep is your failure point. Which therefore means that HST does train to failure. And to train to failure... or your max.. means that you cannot lift anymore. To do 3 sets of max weight is impossible. Obviously you must not be lifting to your full potential, come the max weights. 3x max weight for 3 sets is laughable. If your doing it propoerly you shouldnt be able to lift the muscle or 2 minutes... never mind do another 2 sets of the same weight.