5x3 routine

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I'm thinking of continuing my HST cycle with 2 more weeks of 5x3 routine with progressive load.

------ the cycle -------

2 weeks - 1x15
2 weeks - 2x10
4 weeks - 3x5

Bench
Rows
Delt Flys
Squats
Pulldowns
Deads
Dips

------end-------

Would 5x3 be benefical?

The thing is I'm trying to cut. So off days are for Cardio. 5x3 would keep the muscle on while getting rid of fat?

So. I'm not trying to gain muscle but rather keep what I have and CUT.

What do you think? is that reasonable?

Or Would it be better to go for 15s and cut?

What's better? What are advantages? Disadvantages?

Oh..yeah... and for cardio I aim at everyday... Tabata.
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IMO it is a little too heavy for cutting.

When you cut you want to lift heavy to maintain muscle mass...and you are definatly doing that...but I would go for a heavy cyce of 4 sets of 8 reps.

That way your are gettting more total work and more reps ..which will burn calories better plus it will be heavy enough to maintain muscle.

3 reps is too low unless you are bulking...IMO.

Since you want to cut...try 4 sets of 8 in superset or better yet a circuit fashion.
 
I wouldn't do that more than one or two days a week if on a cut. Fill in the other day or two with some higher rep work in the 6-10 rep range.
 
Why I originally thought of that 5x3 idea was because, how many calories do you really burn doing high rep?
I think - Not many. I kinda figured that workouts are aimed at nutrient partitioning rather then heavy calorie burning, for that kind of thing - there is cardio.

Another thing I noticed, when I was doing high rep routines I didn't break a sweat. But when I did 3x5 I was sweating like a pig (I think it has something to do with breathing), like dead lifts for example. crazy.

So that's why I don't count on high rep routines and would rather count on Cardio. Is there any research done that experiments with High/Low rep routines and cardio.

Another thing I wanted to mention is I've noticed that EVERY successful Cardio Program has something to do with breathing/random heart rate change. The more dramatic is the change the better the result of the cardio workout. EXAMPLES - Circuit fashion workouts, Tabata...

Joe.Muscle
Thanks for the input. I totally agree with you about Circuit fashion workout. The thing is I want to separate Cardio from Weightlifting, just so I get the total control over 2 on different days.

Totentanz
Yeah. heavy weights on some days and the most efficient cardio workout that does ZERO damage to my muscles on other days.


Maybe I'm asking too much.
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If something doesn't make sence just address everything.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Another thing I noticed, when I was doing high rep routines I didn't break a sweat.</div>

Hmmm, whilst it's not the primary issue here, I do find it odd that you can say this. If by 'high rep' routines you mean during the 15s then if you are not sweating like a pig you ain't doing them right.
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If I were cutting and wanted to extend my cycle I would just keep the 5s going longer. I think that will be plenty hard/heavy enough to maintain as much muscle as possible. You don't have to worry about progressing the weight once you are at your 5RMs during cutting as you are not going to be gaining mass. Just keep it going until you can't stand it any longer.
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Lol

Maybe i didn't break a sweat because I don't remember since i already did extend my 5s to 4 weeks. so i finished 10s close to a month ago.
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... hehe..
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but right now I do feel that heavy sweating comes from not breathing or irregular breathing when i move heavier weights...

that's why I'm kinda interested in research of breathing/changing heart rate and effect it makes on body composition... fat burning..

Even Bodybuilding.com has an article on heavy breathing for abb fat reduction... so more scientific info would solve many of my confusions on that part.
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I think too much emphasis is put on this personally.

If you are cutting you are not going to gain any muscle period. The only way you would is if you are brand new to lifting or on steroids.

I assume you are neither...so lets look at the equation.

If we know you are not going to put on muscle b/c of a true cutting being burning more calories than you cosume...then our goal should be just to maintain as much muscle as possible and burn the hell out of calories.

That being said...I would lift heavy in the 6-10 rep range like Tot said. I would do this 3 maybe just 2 days a week. Fully body compound only. Then i would do cardio the rest of the days...again remember we are not going to gain muscle...at best you want lose any...which IMO you cant help but lose some muscle.

So if It was me this is what I would do....actually this is what I am doing.

3 sets of 12 reps with 14 rep max. First 2 sets are done with 30 sec to 1 minute rest between sets.

Last set is done as a circuit.

So I do bench press for 2 sets of 12 then move to back, shoulders legs...all heavy ass compounds.

Then take minute or two break and do the above as one circuit.

If you go heavy...you will sweat and puke!
 
The only reason I would keep the heavy days at one or two days maximum is simply because you are on a calorie deficit and so your performance could suffer if you are doing three or more days of that. You can try it out yourself and gauge how well it is going, then cut back from three days later on if you need to, or just keep going if you are fine.
 
Joe.Muscle
Totentanz

oops.. forgot about my post. Thanks for replying, guys.

k. Today i've tried my 5x3 thing... I did manage to complete it the workout by mixing my routine with Max-Sim.
After doing the first exersise of 5x3 i felt that I could do few more reps. so i bumped it up to the total of 20 reps, and did every other exersise that way without failure.

The problem with 5x3 might be that progressive load increments must be at 1lb per plate just cause the load is pretty damn heavy. So it's either I need to take SD or change the volume to something you guys suggested. Yeh.. I'm stubborn.. gotta test everything for myself everytime.
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BTW: something i've found today at www.nutritiondata.com

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">

This last item (i.e. muscular adaptation to exercise) is an important factor for weight loss, because it enables your body to burn more Calories at all times. Muscle tissue is more &quot;metabolically active&quot; than body fat. With more muscle and less fat, your metabolic rate is naturally higher.

Muscular adaptation occurs most readily when the load placed on a muscle exceeds about 60% of its maximum contractile strength. This makes weight training one of your best exercise choices, and the most direct path to a sleeker, shapelier body.

</div>

Too me what this says is - forget cardio, lift everyday for a better result..
Am I understanding it right?
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Thanks again.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Too me what this says is - forget cardio, lift everyday for a better result..
Am I understanding it right? </div>

I was having a drunk argument on the NYC subway at 11pm this past weekend about this. I know... weird place and time, but my brother was basically saying that cardio would burn more fat, and I was arguing weightlifting was better because you are burning calories even after you lift.

Now, I am not sure what I am saying?
 
Damn, me too!

My brother is all for cardio, and I'm all for weights.
biggrin.gif
 
Let me throw some babbling into the fold.

ATP (Energy) use is higher with the higher force contractions but if work is matched then I don't think it would make a difference. So 3X5 or 5X3 or 2X7 = too much math
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Maintaining mass is much easier than building mass so to worry about 2 or 3 times a week during maintenance or cutting seems foolish to me. The elderly have the hardest time in holding onto mass and a study done in the eldery show that even training only 1 time per week retained strength and mass 1 year after a 3X week training study, using a load that represents 80% 1 RM.

During cutting the sarcoplasm shows the fastest turnover and is far more responsive to caloric intake than fibril. So during a cut the size lost is primarily in the sarcoplasm not contractile size, this isn't to say that contractile degradation doesn't occur but it's far less than most believe, so even though you may lose lean mass most of this is coming from water compartments, glycogen, and some of the other sarcoplasmic constituents.

Cutting using weight training or aerobic exercise, a recent study done of moderately fat women, not obese just heavy, shows that during resistance training the total calories burnt are less than during aerobic activity but when taking EPOC into account then calories burnt per minute of exercise is greater. So if the time is matched resistance training may be more beneficial but since resistance training can rarely be mathced, when speaking of weekly caloric expenditure, because of fatigue and recovery aerobic activity is definately better than no activity, remember it's the total calories expended during a cut that is important. 2-3 times a week of resistance training plus a 2-3 days cardio is going to provide faster results than 2-3 days of resitance or aerobic training alone, so whatever can be maintained IMOO is what is better.
 
Doesn't it also matter what type of calories are burned. The genes ultimately decide, but certain training burns more calories from fat than carbs doesn't it? I don't seem to lose any stomach fat from weight lifting and calorie deficits only. It seems to take it from other areas (legs and arms), however if I supplement 30 + minutes of cardio I start to lose some stomach fat (this could just be from additional calories burned, or just how my genes decide to burn fat based upon what type of training I'm doing) either way I've found supplementing cardio with weight lifting to be very beneficial, not just in keeping weight down, but cardiovascularly as well. Without it I get winded so easy.
 
<div>
(Dan Moore @ Jun. 15 2006,08:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let me throw some babbling into the fold.</div>

Babbling I like,
biggrin.gif


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">ATP (Energy) use is higher with the higher force contractions but if work is matched then I don't think it would make a difference. So 3X5 or 5X3 or 2X7 = too much math
laugh.gif
</div>

But High-Rep &amp; Low-Rep do different things don't they?
What I've been initially aiming at was more Fast-twitch fiber Activation, which would mean more hypertrophy, OR at least a better ability for my body to partition more of the food I eat towards the muscle growth or at least &quot;keepth&quot;(keepability to keep what I want to keep
tounge.gif
)! - but that's just my babbling, so if the body works differently, I'm all here to learn.
smile.gif


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Maintaining mass is much easier than building mass so to worry about 2 or 3 times a week during maintenance or cutting seems foolish to me. The elderly have the hardest time in holding onto mass and a study done in the eldery show that even training only 1 time per week retained strength and mass 1 year after a 3X week training study, using a load that represents 80% 1 RM.</div>

Yes. For me it will be at least 3 times a week. 2 times just leaves more room for beer, and I'd really like to avoid it, even tho I sometimes want to get hammered.
biggrin.gif

80% 1RM, so that does! mean that the more load the more fast twitch fibers get activated the more hypertrophy occurs, the more strength you keep, the more muscle you keep? no?


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">During cutting the sarcoplasm shows the fastest turnover and is far more responsive to caloric intake than fibril. So during a cut the size lost is primarily in the sarcoplasm not contractile size, this isn't to say that contractile degradation doesn't occur but it's far less than most believe, so even though you may lose lean mass most of this is coming from water compartments, glycogen, and some of the other sarcoplasmic constituents.</div>

I Agree, What would be the best way to actually keep that Sarcoplasmic content or at least water since my muscle wont be getting lots of glucogen through my diet, since i'm on a caloric deficit, or more like carb deficit, well it's 27% of my diet which is 50-70 grams a day.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cutting using weight training or aerobic exercise, a recent study done of moderately fat women, not obese just heavy, shows that during resistance training the total calories burnt are less than during aerobic activity but when taking EPOC into account then calories burnt per minute of exercise is greater. So if the time is matched resistance training may be more beneficial, but since resistance training can rarely be mathced, when speaking of weekly caloric expenditure, because of fatigue and recovery aerobic activity is definately better than no activity, remember it's the total calories expended during a cut that is important. 2-3 times a week of resistance training plus a 2-3 days cardio is going to provide faster results than 2-3 days of resitance or aerobic training alone, so whatever can be maintained IMOO is what is better.</div>

Cool. What if its 5 days of resistance training and 5 minutes of *Lite Tabata as a warm-up before each session?

*not a crazy all-out Tabata, but a more lite version of it. I've noticed it kind of does the same thing as Tabata. raises and lowers my heart rate, and changes the breathing pattern a bit... a little experiment.

What do you think?
 
<div>
(Sun-Tzu @ Jun. 15 2006,16:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Doesn't it also matter what type of calories are burned. The genes ultimately decide, but certain training burns more calories from fat than carbs doesn't it? I don't seem to lose any stomach fat from weight lifting and calorie deficits only. It seems to take it from other areas (legs and arms), however if I supplement 30 + minutes of cardio I start to lose some stomach fat (this could just be from additional calories burned, or just how my genes decide to burn fat based upon what type of training I'm doing) either way I've found supplementing cardio with weight lifting to be very beneficial, not just in keeping weight down, but cardiovascularly as well. Without it I get winded so easy.</div>
hmm... from what i've heard:

1. carbs get converted to glucose
2. glucose to glucogen
3. glucogen replentishes muscles &amp; organs
4. glucogen leftovers get converted to triglycerides(instantly available fatty acids for immidiate use)
5. triglycerides to adipose(fat tissue which we all hate so much.)

So, Glucogen is an instant source of energy for the body for immediate use.

If the body needs more energy and there is not enough in the blood, it starts converting Fat to KETONES. Which in their turn get used as energy.

So I'm not sure if one exersise is better than another one for fat burning purposes. The main thing here is the calorie deficit or additional Exersise.

Please, correct me if i'm wrong.
 
<div>
(edgeArchitect @ Jun. 15 2006,19:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But High-Rep &amp; Low-Rep do different things don't they?

What I've been initially aiming at was more Fast-twitch fiber Activation, which would mean more hypertrophy, OR at least a better ability for my body to partition more of the food I eat towards the muscle growth or at least &quot;keepth&quot;(keepability to keep what I want to keep
tounge.gif
)! - but that's just my babbling, so if the body works differently, I'm all here to learn.
smile.gif


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Maintaining mass is much easier than building mass so to worry about 2 or 3 times a week during maintenance or cutting seems foolish to me. The elderly have the hardest time in holding onto mass and a study done in the eldery show that even training only 1 time per week retained strength and mass 1 year after a 3X week training study, using a load that represents 80% 1 RM.</div>

Yes. For me it will be at least 3 times a week. 2 times just leaves more room for beer, and I'd really like to avoid it, even tho I sometimes want to get hammered.  
biggrin.gif

80% 1RM, so that does! mean that the more load the more fast twitch fibers get activated the more hypertrophy occurs, the more strength you keep, the more muscle you keep? no?


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">During cutting the sarcoplasm shows the fastest turnover and is far more responsive to caloric intake than fibril. So during a cut the size lost is primarily in the sarcoplasm not contractile size, this isn't to say that contractile degradation doesn't occur but it's far less than most believe, so even though you may lose lean mass most of this is coming from water compartments, glycogen, and some of the other sarcoplasmic constituents.</div>

I Agree, What would be the best way to actually keep that Sarcoplasmic content or at least water since my muscle wont be getting lots of glucogen through my diet, since i'm on a caloric deficit, or more like carb deficit, well it's 27% of my diet which is 50-70 grams a day.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cutting using weight training or aerobic exercise, a recent study done of moderately fat women, not obese just heavy, shows that during resistance training the total calories burnt are less than during aerobic activity but when taking EPOC into account then calories burnt per minute of exercise is greater. So if the time is matched resistance training may be more beneficial, but since resistance training can rarely be mathced, when speaking of weekly caloric expenditure, because of fatigue and recovery aerobic activity is definately better than no activity, remember it's the total calories expended during a cut that is important. 2-3 times a week of resistance training plus a 2-3 days cardio is going to provide faster results than 2-3 days of resitance or aerobic training alone, so whatever can be maintained IMOO is what is better.</div>

Cool. What if its 5 days of resistance training and 5 minutes of *Lite Tabata as a warm-up before each session?

*not a crazy all-out Tabata, but a more lite version of it. I've noticed it kind of does the same thing as Tabata. raises and lowers my heart rate, and changes the breathing pattern a bit... a little experiment.

What do you think?</div>
In what context? ATP use? Substrates oxidation?

In the end I was commenting on ATP use and it's been shown that when using a 35% 1rm or 70% 1 rm the ATP used is the same if the amount of work is matched.

When looking at energy use during high intensity contractions I believe something in the realm of 70-80% of total energy used is through glycolytic means while the remainder is oxidative, my numbers may be off a tad as I am recalling from memory, so sure there is a difference but when looking at fat loss it's still the deficit that matters most.

Fast twitch fibers can still be activated even in low loading situations, for example very fast contractions.

To keep the sarcoplasmic size intact.............don't diet

What do I think about what? Fat loss and your adding 5 minutes of Tabata, do you really think 5 minutes is truly impacting your energy reserves that much, you might be using @ 35-50 or so kcals more than not doing Tabata
rock.gif
As a way to warm up the body, sure why not.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In what context? ATP use? Substrates oxidation? </div>

Heh.
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not sure which part of my post these questions refer to.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In the end I was commenting on ATP use and it's been shown that when using a 35% 1rm or 70% 1 rm the ATP used is the same if the amount of work is matched.</div>

So. All fiber types require the same amount of ATP be it high-rep Light weights or low-rep Heavy Weights. Right?
Why do ppl notice greater gains during Late 10rms, 5rms and negatives with HST?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When looking at energy use during high intensity contractions I believe something in the realm of 70-80% of total energy used is through glycolytic means while the remainder is oxidative, my numbers may be off a tad as I am recalling from memory, so sure there is a difference but when looking at fat loss it's still the deficit that matters most.</div>

So. Only the remains of energy which is still in the blood in form of glucogen or ketones can be oxidised? If so.. that only occurs DURING the workout. But if we think of EPOC period - then the body would get energy either in form food we eat after the workout OR if its unavailable then the body would break Adipose tissue and oxidise fat.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fast twitch fibers can still be activated even in low loading situations, for example very fast contractions.</div>

Makes sence, acceleration-inertia=more load... I don't do many of those. Is it better then just loading more weight on the bar?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To keep the sarcoplasmic size intact.............don't diet</div>

How about just water?
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What do I think about what? Fat loss and your adding 5 minutes of Tabata, do you really think 5 minutes is truly impacting your energy reserves that much, you might be using @ 35-50 or so kcals more than not doing Tabata As a way to warm up the body, sure why not</div>

What about EPOC effect it brings? Isn't it why Tabata is so good?
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<div>
(edgeArchitect @ Jun. 16 2006,19:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Heh.
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not sure which part of my post these questions refer to.</div>What do you think happens differently between high reps and low reps? I was referring to ATP use, no matter the substrate oxidized.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So. All fiber types require the same amount of ATP be it high-rep Light weights or low-rep Heavy Weights. </div>No, it depends on several things but again if work is mathced then it equalizes.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Right?
Why do ppl notice greater gains during Late 10rms, 5rms and negatives with HST?</div>Load dictates many things when talking growth.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So. Only the remains of energy which is still in the blood in form of glucogen or ketones can be oxidised? If so.. that only occurs DURING the workout. But if we think of EPOC period - then the body would get energy either in form food we eat after the workout OR if its unavailable then the body would break Adipose tissue and oxidise fat. </div>First off, WHAT? Second, not picking on you but, there is glycogen or glucose not glucogen, although there is glucogan. I am assuming you are referring to glucose?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Makes sence, acceleration-inertia=more load... I don't do many of those. Is it better then just loading more weight on the bar?</div>Recruitment order is pretty much set, smallest to largest MU. The rate of recruitment can be hastened via several means, fast contractions is one mean. Any better, sure if you are training for power or for some reason unable to lift heavy enough.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How about just water?
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</div>Again, WHAT?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What about EPOC effect it brings? Isn't it why Tabata is so good?
rock.gif
</div>But you are only talking about 5 minutes worth, not much to cause an increased EPOC. Secondly, most studies on EPOC only show about an additional 50-70 Kcal burn, which amounts to about a 58th of the calorie deficit needed to burn one Lb. of adipose, so if you are doing enough to cause an increase in EPOC for 58 days then your still only talking 1 additional lb loss of fat in 2 months, hell skipping a meal every day will give you 3X more than that.
 
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