A couple questions, AM/PM splits

[WeAre138]

Long time lurker, first time poster as they say. I've looked through the HST articles and a number of the forum threads, but I still have a couple questions I was hoping someone could clear up for me. They all have to do with AM/PM splits.

1) In Blade's FAQ section, he quotes Bryan on his routine, calling it an AM/PM split, where he trains the same muscle groups twice in one day. Then, Bryan adds that if he doesn't have time to get the second workout in, he just does it the next day. That would mean that he's performing a full body workout at least two, if not three days in a row. I always thought this was a big no no. Does anyone else perform this type of split in this manner?

2) Those that do AM/PM splits, do you find doing the same full body workout twice a day is more effective, or do you prefer to split it up; or some combination of the two that Blade suggests?

3) For bulking caloric intake, I read that Bryan recommends 16-18xBW (with others on the forum recommending 20x) and I assume this surplus covers the calories burned performing an HST workout, leaving enough to grow on. However, if one is doing AM/PM splits, is 20xBW going to be enough? Considering I've never gotten a decent response to the "How many calories do I burn lifting?" question, I figure no one really knows.

I understand I'm "splitting hairs that we can't see", but I want to waste as little time training/eating the wrong way as possible.

 

[imported_electric]

I am currently workout out 5x / week fullbody. So I am working each muscle group 5 days in a row. It is a matter of balance between intensity, volume and frequency. I am using low volume and submax weights and it is an intentional overreaching prior to a vacation. The results so far seem good.
I haven't done AM/PM splits so I can't comment on that but regarding caloric intake it probably doesn't matter much since you are supposed to use less volume when increasing frequency so one kind of offsets the other. At the end of the day you'll have to keep close track of your consumed calories and see how well your bulk goes and adjust so the calories burned lifting will be factored in one way or the other.
If you don't mind a little tag along fat use the higher end of the caloric suggestion or even beyond and adjust down if necessary otherwise do it the other way around.

 

[WeAre138]

I really appreciate the feedback. I'm always impressed with the support in this forum.

Ok, so there's nothing inherently harmful with working a muscle group sooner than 36 hours. However, you mention that this is overreaching before a vacation, so I assume you probably wouldn't advocate this is a normal HST routine.

Per Blade's advice in that FAQ thread I mentioned, he made a point of saying that splitting a normal HST workout in two and doing half early in the day and half late doesn't really gain you very much. He also says that the more you do ("generally", meaning not overtraining and such) the better results you get; a way to optimize HST. I took this advice and am currently doubling my work out (full body, two sets per muscle group in the morning, two sets per muscle group in the evening) for the first week of a rep range; and for the second rep range, I do legs in the morning (3 sets per exercise) and upperbody in the evening (3 sets per exercise). So, in essence, when things are light, I'm doing doubled volume, and when things get heavy for a given rep range, I'm doing 1.5X "vanilla HST" volume.

 

[MasterCFI]

Let me chime in. I'm sure that my age has something to do with it (50), but it is very easy for me to overtrain. So, having said that, I have gotten my best results by doing total body in one session, alternating between 1 or 4 sets per exercise at 6 to 9 exercises. I do this every 4th day. Day on, two days off, day on, etc. Actually, remembering my routines from the mid 1980's to 90's, I made better gains on this type of routine then too.

I've made better gains doing it this way than three times a week, etc. We grow outside the gym, and not in it.

Now, for your calorie count. You are either using a simple rule of 16-20, or, you are using an on-line calculator, or you are having a body composition analysis done by a trainer. The bottom line is this:

1. What is your BMR (basal metabolic rate)?
2. Add the calories for your daily activities
3. Add the calories you'll burn during EACH workout
4. Add your calories for cardio, if you do it

Add all of that up for each day and you end up with your total caloric intake to MAINTAIN. If you want to gain weight, then you'll need a surplus of calories. How much surplus will depend on how your body partitians the weight - either to fat or muscle. Maybe start with an excess of 500 and see how it goes. Also, a calorie is NOT a calorie. You'll need to read a little about YOUR macronutrient breakdown. In other words, how many caories/grams should come from protein, fat, carbs, etc.

I don't believe that you can arbitrarily pick a number (16 or 20) and times it by BW and go on. The "generic' number does NOT take into account the particulars I mentioned above. The generic number also doesn't take into account YOUR individual body. I'm particular about this because my wife does the analysis for a living and is a personal trainer, and retired professional bodybuilder. I am a former ranked powerlifter - so, I have my opinion formed! ha

You can search on-line for the calorie calculators. There are many out there. It'll give you more of a guide than picking numbers and running! Happy lifting!

 

[Brixtonian]

Hi 138,

Sorry this is a bit of a late reply - I'm on SD weeks up to Xmas, so dont get on this site so much at the moment.


Anyway, just my experiences... but I did AM/PM splits a couple of years back, and they worked really well.
Infact, I probably had my best results from this split.

I basically did about 6 exercises AM :- squats/incline bench/T-bar rows/shoulder press/barbell curls/standing calf raises

and 6 exercises PM :- leg curls/leg extensions/seated calf raises/dips/chin ups/tricep extensions

or something like that...

I did the usual 1 set of 15 reps, 2 sets of 10 reps & 3 sets of 5 reps, plus the 2 weeks of negative work. Mon, Wed & Fri

So I worked each muscle group twice a day, but with different exercises.
You'll also notice that, for my legs, I only did squats in the AM (when I had more energy) and just isolation movements in the PM, as I couldn't manage to do leg press or deadlifts on the same day as I squat.

I also only did iso's for biceps, shoulders and triceps once a day too, as they were all worked thoroughly with the dips, chins, rows and benches.


Yeah, I had to eat a lot. Probably around 18X bwt. But thats just based on my metabolism, and anymore than that and I would have put on too much fat.
I was looking to tone up primarily, and lean muscle gain.


The main problem I found with it, was its very time consuming - going to the gym twice a day (luckily my workplace has a small, but adequate gym which I used before and after work)

Its also very tiring and hard work - mentally.
It takes a lot of commitment to go to the gym twice a day, and if you have a family and/or social life, it can be a huge hinderence too... its all about finding the right balance

Personally, after 20+ yrs of training, and with a family and hectic worklife, I really only manage once a day, 3X a week nowadays.
I still progress, and enjoy it, and the reality is that any extra gains I may make training twice a day instead of once, just isnt worth it for me anymore...

Hope this helps?

Try it and see. It's all a learning curve, so enjoy...

Best wishes

Brix

 

[WeAre138]

Thanks again for the feedback.

CFI, yeah I was using a standard 16-18xBW for my numbers. I've done the online calculators before too and they seem to be pretty close. And I know I've read Lyle say that you don't burn a whole lot of calories lifting weights; but online calculators report that 2 workouts at 45min-60min each burns something like 800 calories. I'd argue this is a fair amount. But you're absolutely right; pick a number based on some assumptions and adapt it until I hit about a pound a week gain.

Brix: I'm in the same boat as you were, I have a gym a work so it's easy for me to go twice a day. So, during the 5s for example, you were doing 6 sets on the major compound groups and 3 for the isos, roughly? And I couldn't agree more, spending that much energy in the gym makes it an absolute requirement that you keep your focus and your form so you don't get hurt.

Thanks again everyone.