a couple questions from someone new to HST

S

SpecialK

New Member
Hi everyone - I have been a member on WBB, another weightlifting message board, for a few years now.  I stumbled onto HST when searching for a new routine.  I have been following AST's Max-OT for the past 4 years, which represents the extent of my training experience.

I made some very good gains while using the program, particularly in regards to strength.  I have become very burned out with the program both physically and mentally, however.  I had developed a number of nagging injuries over the past year or so, most likely due to using max loads every single workout.  I always eventually work through them, but it usually means I have to not do one or more of the "big" movements.  
I knew it was time for a change, and HST seemed like a good fit for me.  I needed a program that did not have me training with max weights to failure every workout.

In addition, I haven't been able to put on much LBM over the past couple years, despite the strength increases.  My diet has been very clean, and eating excessive calories only led to increased fat gain.  I track what I eat on Fitday, so I know how much I need to eat to maintain, cut, bulk, etc.  That leaves only my routine as the culprit, and I'm hoping that HST can help.  It may be the case though that I've just added all the LBM I can as a natural lifter.

So, after reading the guide and the FAQ, and searching the forum, I still have a couple questions I was hoping you could answer:

1. Won't these workouts take a very long time to complete, given the guidelines for number of exercises, sets, and rest time?  Here is an example assuming 2 sets per exercise, using the 5RM weights and guidelines for warmups and rest as presented in the FAQ:


Squat - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Squat - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Squat - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
Squat - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
Squat - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Squat - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

SLDL - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
SLDL - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
SLDL - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
SLDL - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
SLDL - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
SLDL - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Bench - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Bench - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Bench - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
Bench - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
Bench - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Bench - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Rows - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Rows - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Rows - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
Rows - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
Rows - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Rows - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Shrugs - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Shrugs - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Shrugs - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Shrugs - work set 2
rest 2 minutes

Standing Military Press - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Standing Military Press - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Standing Military Press - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
Standing Military Press - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
Standing Military Press - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Standing Military Press - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Bicep Curls - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Bicep Curls - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Bicep Curls - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
Bicep Curls - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
Bicep Curls - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Bicep Curls - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Tricep Curls - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Tricep Curls - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Tricep Curls - warmup set 3
rest 2 minutes
Tricep Curls - warmup set 4
rest 2 minutes
Tricep Extension - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Tricep Extension - work set 2
rest 2 minutes

Calf Raises - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Calf Raises - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Calf Raises - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Calf Raises - work set 2
rest 2 minutes

Abs - warmup set 1
rest 2 minutes
Abs - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Abs - work set 2

The above information is a good approximation from what I have incorporated into my Max-OT routines.  Since Max-OT advocates 4-6 reps to failure on most lifts, and the final 2 weeks of an HST program are based off of 5RM lifts, I though the numbers would be comparable.

Anyway, if you add up all the rest time above, it ends up being 117 minutes of nothing but rest.  Is that typical?  I was hoping to keep my workouts to an hour or less, crowds nonwithstanding.  Granted, I will not need to use as many warmup sets or as long of rest periods for the 10 or 15 rep weeks, but the above represents the worst case I can think of.  I just don't have that much time to devote to a workout each day.  Even my Max-OT workouts averaged about 1 hr.  

I just don't see how you can cram that whole HST workout into 1 hour.  Am I missing something here?  I did a search on the forum for time AND too AND long AND rest, and did not find any results.

2. The HST guide says that if you do not perform negatives for the last 2 weeks, then you should continue to use your 5RM max for the next 2 weeks.  Wouldn't this be too much volume of heavy weights?  Training the same muscle groups 3x per week to failure seems like it would be too much, but then I have never done this program before.

3. Let's say that after calculating your 5RM, 10RM, and 15RM, you find out during the workout that you can get more reps than that.  Should you go for it?  For example, lets say that for your 5RM weight, you realize you can get a 6th.  Should you?  I'm guessing not, but I figured I'd just ask.

Thanks
 
to save some time i would drop the warm up sets down to every 30 secs or 1 minute.this will save you about 20 minutes!personally id drop sldl this would save you another 14 minutes.thats 35 minutes you saved!
also after doing squats etc you should be fairly warmed up so id drop a warm-up set from bi's and tri's, you should be under an hour at this point . if you keep the intensity and concentration high, i think you would have enough in your training routine to suffice.

number 2: i dont think hst prescribes going to failure anywhere in the text, going heavy certainly!

as for number 3, ive never been one for using an exact number of reps. but it is the reason we find our rep max's first so we know how many reps we are capable of doing at a given weight. i wouldnt worry about the odd rep.


hope this helps  
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That amount of warm-up seems excessive.

You really don't need warm up sets during the 15's unless you have an area that needs a little more attention for some reason. Maybe near the end of the 15's you might need some, but not 4 sets for sure!

During the ten's, I typically warm up with half the weight I use on the work set for squats (5-8 reps usually).

During the 5's I do 50% again and maybe 70% or so if I feel I need it.

If I'm doing SLDL, I warm up a little more for them because I have tight hamstrings, but still a couple of sets at the most.

Basically the same with bench press and shoulder press. Usually one warm up set with 50% of the work load.

After these basic exercises, most everything it pretty well warmed up; you really shouldn't need to warm-up the biceps, triceps, calves or abs.

Occasionally, in the 5's I will do a warm up set for pull downs/chins if I feel I need it.

Of course I suspect this is highly individual. so you would have to adjust for you own needs.

If it's cool in the gym, I vary this a bit. The big thing is to be sure everything is in gear and somewhat fluid for the workout. Not cold and stiff.

But the warm up shouldn't be a workout in itself.

As lcars said, failure isn't really prescribed anywhere but avoiding failure is!

It would seem logical, that if after 2 weeks of 5's, you reach your 5 rep max, then do 2 more weeks with the weights you ended up with, you would be going to failure at each secession; but you actually gain strength during the 5's, so your 5 rep max increases during this period.

I can't really do negatives since I workout alone most of the time, so I typically add 5 lbs every other workout during the last 2 weeks of the 5's, avoiding failure at the same time.

The reason for rep ranges it to try to balance time under tension with central nervous system fatigue. You might be able to do several reps more with the weight you are using at the time, but doing so will begin to tip the scale toward more CNS fatigue.
 
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(lcars @ Nov. 10 2007,06:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">number 2: i dont think hst prescribes going to failure anywhere in the text, going heavy certainly!</div>
Well all of the workouts are calculated from either your 5RM, 10RM, or 15RM, so it seems to me that one workout out of each of the 2-week cycles will involve training to failure, since you will be using either your 5RM, 10RM, or 15RM for those sets. Granted you may have gained some strength by the time you reach that point, and then those may not actually be your maxes anymore, but let's say you don't gain any strength, and those are still your 5RM, 10RM and 15RM - in that case, wouldn't you be going to failure?

Also, that means you would be going to failure for every workout of the last 2 weeks at 5RM, assuming you don't do the negatives instead.
 
Failure under HST is often defined as being when your form breaks down rather than when you have to squirt an eye out of your head to complete the rep you are on.

I tend to treat failure during all my heavy compounds as the point where I might get another rep but I probably won't, so I stop there.

You can train that way a lot more frequently than the HIT type of failure that some folks are used to (I was one of those folks). It's quite OK to cluster reps that you do using your 5RM. So instead of 3 sets of 5 reps you could do 5 sets of 3 reps with the same 5RM load and reduce the amount of fatigue build up. Also, unless you take long rests between sets, subsequent sets with your 5RM loads will be difficult or impossible to complete anyway. Clustering or MaxStim is your friend for post-5s.
 
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(Lol @ Nov. 10 2007,22:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's quite OK to cluster reps that you do using your 5RM. So instead of 3 sets of 5 reps you could do 5 sets of 3 reps with the same 5RM load and reduce the amount of fatigue build up. Also, unless you take long rests between sets, subsequent sets with your 5RM loads will be difficult or impossible to complete anyway. Clustering or MaxStim is your friend for post-5s.</div>
Well what if I wanted to start out following the program exactly as it was written, and just do the 5RM workout for my last 2 weeks? I also think that it would take long rest periods (3+ minutes) to hit all of the 5RM sets successfully, so what am I supposed to do here?

Am I doing too many exercises in the program above? Also what about the warmups for the case of the 5RM workouts? Some of them could be eliminated because they overlap quite a bit with other lifts (i.e. shoulder press and bench), but that would still make the workouts well over an hour long.
 
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(SpecialK @ Nov. 11 2007,08:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well what if I wanted to start out following the program exactly as it was written, and just do the 5RM workout for my last 2 weeks?  I also think that it would take long rest periods (3+ minutes) to hit all of the 5RM sets successfully, so what am I supposed to do here?</div>

That's fine but you'll have to give yourself a bit more rest. To save time, you can always superset between different exercises; eg. a set for back followed by a set for chest.

<div>
(SpecialK @ Nov. 11 2007,08:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Am I doing too many exercises in the program above?  Also what about the warmups for the case of the 5RM workouts?  Some of them could be eliminated because they overlap quite a bit with other lifts (i.e. shoulder press and bench), but that would still make the workouts well over an hour long.</div>

Personally, I do one or two warm-up sets for each major muscle group. I nearly always start out with an exercise like squats or deads so my whole body is pretty warm after that. If I am cold when I want to start a w/o I'll jog for a few minutes to get my heart rate up a bit. Then I'll  simply add a plate each side of the bar and do a quick set - often 5-10 reps. Then I'll add another plate each side and do the same. Only rest is time putting the plates on. I don't rush but it's not long anyway. That would see me ready for work-sets for 10s or 15s. For 5s I'll use a few more steps to my work sets but only for a few reps each time. I'll be ready to hit my work sets for 5s in around 5 mins. Then I tend to get my work sets done in 15-20 mins depending on where I am in the meso cycle.

Using your w/o schedule (dropping shrugs):

Squat - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Squat - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Squat - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Squat - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

SLDL - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
SLDL - work set 1 (add some shrugs at the end or after a minutes rest)
rest 3 minutes
SLDL - work set 2 (add some shrugs at the end or after a minutes rest)
rest 3 minutes

Bench - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Bench - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Bench - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Bench - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Rows - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Rows - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Rows - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Rows - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Standing Military Press - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Standing Military Press - warmup set 2
rest 2 minutes
Standing Military Press - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Standing Military Press - work set 2

*****************************

Say around 45 minutes rest (probably less) to this point plus 19 sets (10 total work sets) so that'll take around an hour.
I would make that my workout. If I had time I would do a few more work sets for my compound movements rather than add in the isos, but that's just me.
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If I did the isos I would typically take less rest for them as they are far less demanding. Calves tend to recover pretty fast too so you can get away with less rest for them.

Bicep Curls - warmup set 1 (only during 5s)
rest 1 minutes
Bicep Curls - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Bicep Curls - work set 2
rest 2 minutes

Tricep Curls - warmup set 1 (again during 5s &amp; depending on the movement used - if close grip bench, no warm-up)
rest 1 minutes
Tricep Extension - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Tricep Extension - work set 2
rest 2 minutes

Calf Raises - warmup set 1
rest 1 minutes
Calf Raises - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Calf Raises - work set 2
rest 2 minutes

Abs - work set 1
rest 2 minutes
Abs - work set 2

Say 17 more minutes rest tops, plus about 11 sets.

I reckon you could get the whole lot done, isos and all if you wanted to, in around an hour and a half. If you superset some of the exercises you'll get it done much quicker. I'd rather do the ab stuff on days following w/o days. It's quick and pretty easy to do at home.
 
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(Lol @ Nov. 10 2007,22:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Failure under HST is often defined as being when your form breaks down rather than when you have to squirt an eye out of your head to complete the rep you are on.

I tend to treat failure during all my heavy compounds as the point where I might get another rep but I probably won't, so I stop there.

You can train that way a lot more frequently than the HIT type of failure that some folks are used to (I was one of those folks). It's quite OK to cluster reps that you do using your 5RM. So instead of 3 sets of 5 reps you could do 5 sets of 3 reps with the same 5RM load and reduce the amount of fatigue build up. Also, unless you take long rests between sets, subsequent sets with your 5RM loads will be difficult or impossible to complete anyway. Clustering or MaxStim is your friend for post-5s.</div>
Squirt an eye out!!! I love it!!!!!

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OK, how about this modified schedule:

Squat - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Squat - warmup set 2
rest 1 minute
Squat - warmup set 3 (optional - may not be necessary)
rest 1 minute
Squat - warmup set 4 (optional - may not be necessary)
rest 1 minute
Squat - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Squat - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

SLDL - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
SLDL - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
SLDL - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Bench - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Bench - warmup set 2
rest 1 minute
Bench - warmup set 3 (optional - may not be necessary)
rest 1 minute
Bench - warmup set 4 (optional - may not be necessary)
rest 1 minute
Bench - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Bench - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Rows - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Rows - warmup set 2
rest 1 minute
Rows - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Rows - work set 2
rest 3 minutes

Standing Military Press - warmup set 1
rest 1 minute
Standing Military Press - warmup set 2
rest 1 minute
Standing Military Press - work set 1
rest 3 minutes
Standing Military Press - work set 2
rest 1 minute

Abs - maybe not every workout?*

Cable Crunches - work set 1 (constant weight)*
rest 2 minutes
Cable Crunches - work set 2 (constant weight)*
rest 2 minutes
DB Leg Lifts - work set 1 (constant weight)*
rest 2 minutes
DB Leg Lifts - work set 2 (constant weight)*

* see my comments questions below

This workout comes to 44 minutes of rest.  Assuming each set takes ~30 seconds to perform, that comes in at right about 1 hour.

I admit this will be the first time I have trained without iso lifts for bis, tris, and calves, however I am convinced that they are not going to grow anymore until the rest of my body does, so maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

The warmup sets 3 and 4 for squat and bench are listed as optional because I know they probably won't be needed for the 15's or the 10's, but for the max sets at 5RM, I am not sure if I can get sufficiently warmed up with only 2 warmup sets.

I chose 4 ab exercises - 2 sets of cable crunches and 2 sets of DB leg lifts - because I have had some annoying back problems before and the chiro recommended always include some upper and lower ab reistance exercises in my routine.

Also, should I increase the weight each week on abs, just as I do on the other lifts?  I wasn't sure because they are such a small muscle group.  The DB leg lifts are only done with a 15 lb. dumbbell, for example.  You can't really scale that down much.  The cable crunches could conceivably be scaled, as I normally use the 160 lb. setting on the cable machine to do those.  What do you think?

Also on the abs - should I be doing them MWF like everything else?  If I don't scale the weight up, then that means I would be training them pretty hard 3x per week.  Even the HIT-style routine I did previously only recommended training abs 1-2x per week, max.  So I guess I would either have to scale the weight like everything else, which is a problem for the leg lifts, or not do abs every workout.

What do you think?
 
Your workout
33 warm up sets
20 work sets
117 minutes of rest

Why do you even go to the gym? Sarcasm aside, I think you should get your priorities in order. Begin with the four fundamental principles.

1. Load
2. Load progression
3. Frequency
4. SD

Lifting to failure is a limiting factor. Fatigue is a limiting factor. Time is a limiting factor. Unless you want to limit your ability, it's best to deal with those factors properly. When you can avoid failure, fatigue and you can avoid spending too much time in the gym, you can:

1. Lift the bar more often
2. Lift a heavier bar
3. Lift the bar more frequently

You are not required to lift your 5RM for 5 consecutive reps. You can cluster reps so that you lift the bar in singles or whatever floats your boat. Load is king. All other parameters are secondary. Read about Max-Stim. Amongst other things, it's a method in which you lift the bar in singles only with a short rest between each rep. It allows to lift more often, heavier and more frequently. It's a fatigue management method, basically.

When it says &quot;use 5RM&quot; in guide, it doesn't mean &quot;lift bar 5 consecutive times&quot;. Instead, it means &quot;lift the weight you can normally lift 5 consecutive times&quot;. So, when you get to the 5s, lift the bar as many times as you want in any fashion as you want as long as you lift the 5RM (or whatever load you're supposed to lift for that workout). In other words, 5RM represents a load, not a strict number of reps.

When you design your workout, do it this way below:

Each number represents one load to be used for one workout. Note the load progression from one workout to the next. Note the absence of sets/reps or warm up set/reps. All it is, is a load progression that is easy to follow once we know what it means.

DL

70 xx 75 xx 80 xx (15s, 2 weeks)
85 xx 90 xx 95 xx (10s, 2 weeks)
100 xxx 105 xxx 110 xx (5s, 2 weeks)
110 xxx 110 xxx 110 xx (5s, 2 weeks)

SQ

xx 55 xx 60 xx 65
xx 70 xx 75 xx 80
xx 85 xx 90 xx 95
xx 95 xx 95 xx 95

ROW / OP

40 40 40 42.5 42.5 42.5
45 45 45 47.5 47.5 47.5
50 50 50 52.5 52.5 52.5
55 55 55 55 55 55

When you log your workout, do so like below:

08:47 2007-11-09 45 minutes
(load, exercise, total reps done)
75 dl 20
40 row 25
40 op 25
40 pc 15

As we can see, it's short enough that I can keep that log in a pocket notepad. 3 per page. BTW, I only write reps after the workout. I never know how many reps I'll put in.
 
Excuse the pun, mate, I usually don't get excited this much,  
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but...you have a classic case of Paralysis by analysis.

Follow what LOL said in the first place, for further directions his signature points to an excellent thread, called simplify and win, go read some there.

Looks like you really enjoy warming up, consider warming up to level 3 only when you are trying for new PR's even then you may be making this your training rather than the workset by which point you are &quot;pooped&quot; anyways
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After 50 years of body building and for what it is worth, my total warm up for a full body workout consists of one set of each with no weights:

Squats
Pull Ups
Push ups
Hyperextensions

I never take more than 30 to 60 seconds rest between sets and incorporate giant sets where possible without the risk of injury.  I do not do multiple sets of any exercise but prefer to do multiple exercises instead. I currently split my full body workouts into two days of two sessions each day. Each workout takes no more than 15 to 20 minutes (I work out at home so I can do splits like this which lets me leave my basement gym refreshed and not fatigued).

When in doubt, do less, not more, and increase frequency to what your body can tolerate (recover from) to maximize gains.

Good luck.
 
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