A few open issues

E

Explosions in the Sky

New Member
Hi,

after reading the HST-Faq Book and a lot of posts in this forum, I have a couple of questions:

* How can I judge the CNS-recovery? For example, not being able to progress could also be the result of not eating enough calories. How is CNS fatigue related to nutrition, sleep etc.?

* If I drop the deadlift entirely from the workout (Bill Starr argues in "The Strongest shall survive" book the risks outweight the benefits of the deadlift), could I then add a few extra sets to my bench or 1-2 sets of dips in the same workout because CNS fatigue for the workout would be the same as before w/ deadlift (or even lower because of high CNS taxing effect of the deadlift)? The reason: I have had back problems and the deadlift is a technically very demanding exercise, so I think it is not for me.

* Bryan mentioned he tries to maintain a slight level of soreness most of the time. I usually don't feel sore since doing HST. How is it possible to be sore when training with sub-max weights (which the statement of Bryan would imply), like in case of the first week of 10s?

* Building muscle takes a lot of time (years). So I have read. But how the hell is it possible for hollywood actors to build huge muscles withing 6-12 months? What do they know/do what others don't? Not all of them are genetically gifted.

Thanks
 
Explosions in the Sky said:
Building muscle takes a lot of time (years). So I have read. But how the hell is it possible for hollywood actors to build huge muscles withing 6-12 months? What do they know/do what others don't?
Click to expand...

A drug dealer. Or my guess is more often than not, a friendly doctor with a loose rx pad. But the two are really same thing in the end.
 
^^^

This. Roids bro. Nobody puts on 30-50lb of muscle in a year, let alone 3-6 months. Can you imagine going from 150lb to 200lb in a year and all of it being muscle? Why do you think so many of these guys start developing tendon problems; especially when they abuse them.

The deadlift thing - Starr is referring to Football, is he not? I plugged in Bill Starr Deadlifts into google and he doesn't NOT advocate them. Essentially, what he means is deads have the tendency to burn out the CNS if you do too much volume. It's a VERY CNS-draining exercise because it's full body - and add squats which work many of the same muscles and if you over-do deadlifts, you can burn out. That's why a lot of programs only recommend 1 work set; especially when you're near your max. So if he's referring to football, that makes a lot of sense because football training is already EXTREMELY intense so adding in high volume deadlifts is a recipe for fatigue and injury.

If you have herniated or ruptured discs, deadlifting might not be for you. What type of back problems do you have? Are they spinal? It really depends on how you train. There are lifters who still deadlift with back issues and do real well as long as they're cautious, don't over exert themselves, and work with spot on form, but it's really a case by case basis. If the movement pattern hurts you, don't do it. Find an alternative. Do you squat? Does squating hurt you?

There's methods of improving spinal mobilization, such as foam rolling. It's also recommended to hang from a pullup bar after every heavy squat and/or deadlift session to decompress the lumbar spine. I'm not certain how safe both methods are if you already have disc issues though. That's for an ortho or osteopath to tell you.

Judging CNS...well it's going to come down to a few things: avoiding failure, looking at volume, etc. If you're not progressing in your lifts, you need to look at form, nutrition, etc. If your CNS was truly starting to get shot, you'd start to see a decrease in strength, let alone a stagnation. Physical Fatigue can occur as well. If you hit 5 reps for 3 sets last workout but you start missing reps on your 2nd and 3rd set, it could very well be your CNS. But that's where deloading comes into play, if you're on a strength program. That's also why zig zagging is can be beneficial, as Bryan has attributed it to a short deloading period, of sorts. You can only sustain lifting your max for a certain while, and after that you start to fatigue. That's why submaximal weights are a staple of many programs. Using your max all the time is only going to cause stagnation in growth and strength.

So IMO if you stick to HST principles, you won't overtrain.

Nutrition CAN effect CNS, but I wouldn't think you'd see a massive issue unless you're eating like garbage and/or are getting next to nothing in your body.

Bryan did say that soreness is not necessarily an indicator of progress. Hell there are some parts of my body that never get sore - usually biceps and triceps. But my traps, hams (when I've gotten to work them lol), shoulders and lats are always sore. IMO don't judge progress by soreness. If you want to judge size, judge by measurements over time. If you want to judge muscle mass, judge by body fat % to weight ratio over time. Judge by strength increase too.

Oh, and FYI Explosions is my favorite band :).
 
Last edited:
Oh, and FYI Explosions is my favorite band :).[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are a great band. Their album "The Earth Is Not a Cold Dead Place" is a true masterpiece.


Regarding my back pain: I deadlifted like 1 year ago and I heard something crack in my spine because I could not maintain the correct back posture. I had x-ray, MRI etc. done but it did not reveal anything except the scoliosis I already knew about and some kyphosis. The pain only appears at night lying in bed after a few hours and it is killing me. I can't stay in this horizontal position for long. During the day and training no pain. I tried a chiropractic doctor, orthopedic and physical therapy. I even have a foam roller... But I could not get rid of the problems. Some improvement.

You were right, Bill Starr's book was targeted at football players....

The thing is I train at home. I read quite a few books on exercise technique (Rippetoe, Bill Starr, Stuart McRobert), but in my view though Squats & Deadlifts are great exercises but they are also very complex and you need a good trainer (often hard to find..) to learn them correctly. I mean Rippetoe spends 40 pages or so in his book on Deadlifts. I do squats but only cautiously add weight. I am not a powerlifter and my goal is to achieve a decent physique and not look like Arnold. That must be possible without Deadlifts.

What are general guidelines as far as total number of sets per workout are concerned in order to avoid overtraining? For 15s (10sets?) 10s and 5s (20 sets)?
 
HST is about keeping variety to a minimum. One compound exercise per primary muscle group is all that's really called for. You can have two for certain parts like back (pullups and rows) but they are switched off each workout (So Monday Rows, Weds Pullups) for example. Isolation exercises are only used on parts you're lagging on or you feel don't get hit well. Could be the posterior delt, for example. It's not really the number of total sets you should worry about but the amount of exercises you do and the amount of sets you do per exercise. Generally, the vanilla HST program calls for 1 set for 15s, 2 sets for 10s, and 3 sets for 5s. I personally do 1-2 sets for 15s, 2 sets for 10s, and 2 to 3 sets for 5s (2 usually being reserved for military press if I'm benching right after, or an isolation movement). Other people decrease volume throughout a mesocycle as the load increases, so they might start at 2 sets for 15s, and end up at 1 set by the time they hit their 15 rep max. It's really about finding your grove. But the main focus is about keeping volume ABOUT the same throughout the entire cycle without sacrificing form or going to failure.

Main thing about lifts like deads and squats is looking at leverage points. They can be different depending on the length of your torso, arms, and legs. You also have to look at flexibility, which can inhibit form simply because you don't have the range of motion to start where you need to be or travel through the pattern correctly. If you've got inhibited glutes, a tight lower back, or tight hamstrings, you're not going to maintain lumbar control through the movement which puts you at risk.

You ever try doing a sumo deadlift? If you can squat without back rounding then you might be better off doing sumo, if you ever get back into deadlifting that is. I've read that there's less sheer on the lower back. But it does ultimately come down to personal preference.

Are squats and deads necessary? Well I haven't been able to work my lower body for a long time now so my legs are essentially detrained, so I can't really give you a personal feel of the necessity, but I can tell you that squats and deadlifts are going to produce the most stimulus to your anterior and posterior chains and release much more GH than leg press and quad extension will. Plus quad extension puts a lot of sheer on the ACL, so if you have knee problems it's not great to do. And despite leg press being compound, it's not functional. So squatting and deadlifting are best. But if you truly have physical issue with both exercises, then there are alternatives. They aren't going to be nearly as effective but that doesn't mean you can't build some muscle on your legs over time.

Weird that they didn't find anything in the MRI. Doesn't mean there's nothing wrong but if there was a disc issue I'd think it'd be visible. I know that if you have scoliosis/ kyphosis, you can experience some back pain just out of pathology. I have very mild lumbar scoliosis; so mild that the military didn't catch it when I enlisted and only found out about it until I got an x-ray for an unrelated issue. I also have the asymptomatic form of spina bifida. I get some mild back pain, especially on occasion when I lay down at night or on occasion when I bend over without bending my knees, but I've got healthy discs and excellent mobility so I don't care much. My lower back pops too but it's just air pockets.

When you deadlifted a year ago, was the crack painful or was it just a crack? It may very well have just been your joints moving. But then again, I'm not a medical professional so don't take my word as gospel lol.
 
ok, thanks. Interesting points.

The crack I noticed during deadlifting... I remember the problems startet around that time, so it would be a weird coincidence, but I can't tell for sure.
Anyway, I am going to work on flexibility, do some stretching on a regular basis and continue with HST. So far I am pretty happy with the results.
 
On CNS fatigue:

I picked up The Athletes Guide to Recovery to try and figure this out. You like to read so I'll tell you the book gives a long list of inventories and software that can be used to assess fatigue. Funny thing, the author notes that how you feel subjectively precedes anything that would show up in bloodwork.

Some things to look for: depressed, irritable, insomnia, decreased appetite, and strong aversion to training are listed as plausible symptoms of overtraining.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top