About to start 2nd cycle and torn between a few routines

J

jheard89

New Member
Jjust finished my first cycle running 1/2 sets per exercise for all rep ranges, routine was as follows:

Squat x1
RDL x2
Bench x2
Dips x1
Pullups x2
Rows x2
Shrugs x1
Lat raises x2
Shoulder press x2
Any curling exercise x2
SKullcrushers x2
Calves+ab work

I found my workouts took far too long and I intend to drop all isolation (except lat raises) during my 5rep weeks and focus on compounds. I'm also planning on doing 1/2/3 sets for 15/10/5's this time using clustered sets.
I was planning to do something along the lines of this, alternating between A/B workouts, with A on Monday+Friday and B on Wednesdays, not ABA BAB etc.

A
Squat
RDL
Incline bench
Chins
Seated rows
Shoulder press
Lat raises (8 reps minimum regardless of week)
Incline hammer curls (15/10 weeks only)
Skullcrushers (15/10 weeks only)
Calves+ab work

B
Leg press
SLDL
Dips
Pullups
Seated rows
Shoulder press
Shrugs (8 reps minimum regardless of week)
Concentration curls (15/10 weeks only)
Pushdowns (15/10 weeks only)
Calves+ab work

This still comes out at 21 sets per workout, not including calves+abs though. If I'm resting 3min between sets on my 5rep weeks that's an hour already, not including warm up sets and time it takes to set up bars/deload them etc. I vaguely remember seeing a thread about push/pull splits using HST but haven't been able to find it again. I was wondering if this would undermine the high frequency that really seems to set HST apart?


Had something like this in mind;

Push
Squat
Leg extension
Incline bench
Dips
Shoulder press
Lat raise

Pull
RDL
Leg curl
Chins
Seated rows
Shrug

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.
 
I have some questions that may assist others in helping you since we don’t know anything about your training age or goals.

Do you have any medical or equipment limitations? (e.g. can’t Deadlift because of an injury)

How long have you been training effectively?

To gauge how effectively you have trained how much can you Bench, Press, Squat and Deadlift in relation to your body weight?

What are your goals short, medium and long term. (e.g. look good at the beach, get f***ing huge)

I ask these in case there is any special issue people should address when offering suggestions. However, I can generally say that unless you have some special need, like powerlifting, and can already Bench 1.5 x BW and Squat and Deadlift 2 x BW then stick to the basics. IMO the best basic mass building exercises are as follows in order of effectiveness:

Deadlift
Squat
Chin Up
Shoulder Press
Dip
DB Row
Shrug
Bench Press

Then throw in some other exercises like Lateral Raises, Calf Raises, Shoulder Prehab work to round things out if you like, but unless you’re already big or have a specific sports/ascetic need then stick to the basics. In other words Ditch the Leg Curls and Extensions and do real Deadlifts instead of RDLs at a minimum.
 
Yea that's fair enough, thanks. Compacted a lumbar vertebrae by about 30% a couple of years ago so I avoid deadlifts and bent over rows, preferring to do seated rows instead for my middle back. Also avoid any standing pressing movements and keep shrugs to a minimum of 8 reps. My 1rep max for bench is just below 1.5 x BW. I've avoided squatting since my injury having just taken up doing them again and slowly increasing but I'm around 1.5 x BW for 5reps and honestly I'm nervous to try maxing due to my injury.

I would say I've been training effectively for about 10 months now, however I've recently returned from a 2 month trip to Africa where I lost a considerable amount of strength and size, having only just got back to where I was before I left. I'm currently sat at about 168lbs 12% BF with my long term goal being 185-195lbs 8/9%.

Are you suggesting I stick to the basic HST template with the same amount of sets every week? So the workout you suggested with maybe 1set of squats and 1set of dips, with everything else at 2 sets?
 
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You said you have a compressed lumbar disk which I’m assuming is different from a ruptured lumbar disk which I have?

I ask because spent 5 years being afraid of Deadlifting or Squating, not to mention GMs, SLDL, RDL and all but supported DB Rows for fear of the shear forces on the disk. Boy was I wrong, because less than 2 months into Deadlifting, and the constant back pain and sciatica were gone. I can now sleep w/o putting my legs up on pillows and no longer fear feeling like I was punched in a kidney and falling over just because I bent down to tie a shoelace. However, I understand if your situation is different and you can’t afford to put compressive forces on it but I’m still surprised that the shearing forces of things like SLDL and RDL don’t cause problems.

No matter what exercises you finally choose if you don’t already have one I suggest getting a powerlifting belt and not using a “weight lifting” belt like most stores sell. When I switched, after blowing the buckle out of my weightlifting belt, I found the my core is much more stable with the belt that’s 4” wide all around and more ridged.

Since you are already starting to Squat again and worked your way up to 1.5 x BW I would keep going with that and even try some regular Deadlifts. I also hear you about maxing which probably isn’t something you want to do unless you plan on powerlifting anyway you might also want to avoid doing reps because that’s when people form starts to go to hell. If you haven’t already you might look into using Max Stim, here’s the long explanation

http://www.clutchfitness.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6130

Also being afraid of hurting my back I decided early on not to do reps with heavy Squats/Deadlifts (and still don’t) so doing Max Stim reps (basically a programed way of doing heavy singles) worked perfectly for me including making my upper back grow huge since went in a year and a half from medium to large to extra-large t-shirts drug free. It was this site that turned me on to Max Stim reps.

Barring that I would try to stick to more compound type movements like Leg Presses and SLDL/RDL and just up the volume rather than doing leg isolation exercises alike leg curls and extensions. The reason being is that over time those types of isolation exercise not done in conjunction with compound exercises tend to result in muscle imbalances since a lot of the supporting muscles aren’t getting worked enough to keep up which can cause problems later.
Your selection of exercises is actually pretty good but I would concider making the following changes if you can:
Push
Squat
Leg extension (eliminate)
Incline bench
Dips
Shoulder press
Lat raise

Pull
RDL
Leg curl (eliminate)
Chins
Seated rows (supported DB Rows)
Shrug

At a minimum I would consider the changes in (). You might also want to consider trying out Deadlifts by rotating them in once a week in place of Squats, just take it slow and build up your core. If you do end up trying more Squats and Deadlifts at some point you might also consider switching to an Upper/Lower/Upper/Lower/Upper split if you work out 5 days a week. I’ve found that gives me a good balance between workload and lower back recovery.

As for sets/reps IMO they tend to be very arbitrary and how many reps you get is usually more important than how you get there with the exception of clustering and example of which is here:

http://www.clutchfitness.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9363

Clustering can be a real time saver especially when you can’t superset push/pull exercises plus for the reasons stated in the link you can get more “effective” work done with less reps in less time than with traditional set/rep schemes. The real key is getting progressive overload and enough time-under-tension combined to stimulate muscle growth. One nice thing is that as the weights go up rep speed tends to slow down so you actually get more time-under-tension with fewer reps. I would usually try to hit at least 20 reps/exercise but when things got real heavy I would drop as low as 10 singles for things like Deadlifts or Squats.

I hope I don’t sound to preachy about the Deadlifts but for me they have been a real lifesaver (with the side benefit of putting more mass on me than any other single exercise.

On a side note where were you in Africa? Back in the 80s I lived for a year and a half each in Ghana and Sierra Leone and also traveled around from as far North as Mauritania and South as Nigeria.
 
Wow thanks for such an in depth reply, wasn't expecting that, it's greatly appreciated. Yea I fractured one of my vertebrae as a result of it compacting. I would like to start deadlifting and have been looking for a reason to start again, will start off light and see how it goes. My main problem with deadlifting is wanting to increase my weight too fast resulting in my form suffering, which I know I shouldn't do, but the ego comes into play and before you know it my back is arching ever so slightly. Will go into it again with greater caution this time. I'm trying to avoid using belts at the moment as I'm trying to only go as heavy as my core will allow me to if that makes sense?

Yea I've never been a fan of maxing to be honest, I keep things to 5 reps minimum at the moment. Haven't ever heard of Maxstim before so will have a look at that and let you know what I think, thanks for the suggestion. Currently I'm still torn between an alternating A/B full body 3x week and a Push/Pull, I only included the leg isolation in the latter as I thought I might need to up the volume for my Quads/Hamstrings as a result of decreased frequency going from 3x a week to every 5days?

Currently I'm working out 3 days a week as I'm extremely busy with university/boxing/krav maga etc so HST works out perfectly for me. I tried clustering for the first time the other week and really liked it so gonna continue using throughout my upcoming cycle. Will also include deadlifts now, swapping them with leg press if I do the A/B or alternating between them and RDLs for Push/Pull if I do that. Do you reckon it would be ok to Deadlift for quads and RDL for hams within the same workout?

Was in Madagascar for the 2months doing marine conservation work but have never been to mainland Africa. Thanks again for you help
 
I know what you mean wanting to increase the weight to fast I just smoked a Squat PR today and felt I could easily do more but stopped knowing that this way two weeks from now I will hit another PR unless I have a bad day. If you can just make yourself accept that every 5 lbs. more is a PR they will probably add up just as fast or faster than if you jump 30 lbs. and then stagnate for 3 months or worse injure yourself. BTW if you haven’t noticed you had to check your ego at the door when you started HST since the 15 do look pretty wimpy but the principles work.

I know some people advocate not wearing belts to help strengthen your core as using a belt for support supposedly weakens it. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a study that confirms this but in your case just like mine I wouldn’t mess around. You have a bad back so for safety sake I suggest you use a belt and learn to use it properly (most people in the gym don’t) which is why you want a 4” all round belt that’s very ridged. It may make the difference between a bad lift you can walk away from and one that leaves you laying on the floor.

Instead strengthen you core with other exercises like GMs, and various Abs work, but especially GMs if you want to strengthen your lower back. I’m still scared of them but once I started doing them they’ve progressed nicely, and they will hit your lower back, glutes and hams hard. As for doing various lower back intensive exercises only you can judge if it’s too much. However, since like me you’ve been babying your lower back for some time I’m guessing one lower back intensive exercise a session may be all that you can handle at first. I’ve only recently gotten to the point I can do Speed Pulls and Speed Squats the same day or do GMs after Squating or Deadlifting so you may have to work on it. Also if you didn’t notice IMO GMs are a better overall exercise for helping your Deadlift and Squat that RDLs and SLDLs.

If you can only work out 3 days a week I would try to stick to full body workouts each day. If you use a wide stance on your Squat and Deadlift it will hit your hamstings more while still activating your Quads just as much so you could probably skip the extra RDLs or SLDLs saving some time. You may never need to do separate Hamstring work unless you plan to seriously Deadlift or Squat later down the road. If you do this I would suggest alternating between Squats and Deadlifts (Squat/Deadlift/Squat) so you’re only Deadlifting once a week. If you then use clustering for your upper body exercises or superset opposing body parts it will also shorten your workout.
 
Yea I'm normally pretty good with taking my ego out of the equation but for some reason I forget this with DLs. I'll look into that, have in the past just used my rather flimsy 'bodybuilder' belt as you call it so will give a proper belt a go. I've taken up yoga and practice the alexander technique daily and this seems to keep my back in fairly good health although I've never tried GMs, they always struck me as something I should avoid with my back.

I've been using a pretty wide stance on my squats for some time now which probably explains why doing them with RDLs leaves my hamstrings feeling pretty sore throughout the week. Would you recommend that I DL slightly wider than normal or go full blown sumo on it? I was planning to DL once a week like you suggested and cluster but had never really considered the possibility of supersetting. That could be the time saver I was looking for.

Following your advice gonna go for the A/B alternating, B on Wednesdays only;

Squat
Incline
Chins
Seated Row
Shoulder Press
Lat Raise

DL
Dips
Pull Ups
Supported Rows
Shoulder Press
Shrugs

Thanks again mate, been a big help.
 
I hear you on the GMs. The thought of doing them scared the hell out of me but Tot here on the forum swears by them and since I started reading up on and using the Westside routine that also swears by them I started doing them and have had good luck so far. However, I already had about a year of Deadlifting before starting GMs so I’d already strengthened my core quite a bit probably making it easier to handle them.

I would only advocate an ultra-wide sumo stance for Deadlifts and Squats if you are training for powerlifting and then only if that turned out to be your best leverages and that your hips could handle it and you’re using a squat suit for Squating. So to get the best of both worlds in quad and hamstring activation I would stick with a medium wide stance like your using for Squats for both Deadlifts and Squats and maybe doing a cycle conventional once and a while to see what works best for you.

Excellent looking exercise selection! About the only suggestions I could make, and they are trivial, would be to switch the Shrugs to the non-Deadlift days since Deadlifting will hit them pretty good and that way you will be hitting them every workout like most of your other body parts. Additionally I would do the Lat Raises on every workout rather than only twice a week so that way you’re hitting all your body parts three times a week. Another good call you've made is having an equal number of back exercises to chest exercises. Most people overload the chest and under load the back when it should really be the other way around if you really wish to build the most muscle. Just look at a muscle schematic and see where there's more muscle mass to potentially make grow.

Something else I didn’t mention before is that if you’re not already I would suggest using your belt when you do Shrugs if they are pretty heavy. I can Shrug more than I can Deadlift and wouldn’t even think of picking up that bar without the belt to help stabilize my core.

Here is a decent video explaining how to properly use a belt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dirIBu_5R-Y&feature=related

About the only thing he doesn’t mention is you generally want the front of the belt a little low (doesn’t have to be drastic) just enough that when you push your abdomen out it pushes against the belt and doesn’t push out under it, but ultimately use what works best for you.
 
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Yea I found sumo deadlifts put more strain on my back than conventional anyway so will carry on using the same stance I have been. Ah good idea, I had ideally wanted to do lateral raises at least twice a week as my medial delts could use some work, and who doesn't like widening their shoulders? Hadn't thought about being able to drop shrugs to once a week with inclusion of DLs. Yea and I agree about the chest/back exercise ratio, seen a lot of routines only doing 1 back exercise as opposed to 1 for lats and 1 for middle back which didn't seem logical to me.

Thanks for the video, did wonder what you meant by 'wearing a belt properly' in your earlier post, will definitely invest in one now. My problem with shrugs though is that I have to do DB shrugs, and my gym only goes up to 53kg which I can do about 12reps with. I find using a barbell is just too painful as it bends me forwards.

Really appreciate the help mate, will let you know how it all goes.
 
Just a couple suggestions you may not have thought of. If you don’t already wear your belt while doing Shrugs. Also by doing the Shrugs inside a power rack with the BB set on the safety bars I use the uprights of the power rack to lean into a little bit which means I don’t have to stabilize the bar as much by pulling it backwards with my back. I’ve also read that adding that little forward lean also targets you Traps even more. You might give it a try. Another possibility is to use two BBs set on the safety bars of a power rack but use them just like you would DBs Shruging one with each arm. It might fell a bit awkward until you get the balance down, but that way you could load up much more weight on the BBs than you ever could with DB pairs.

Good luck and please keep us posted on how your cycle goes.

Cheers,
Dean
 
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