Advice for ISOs

[AKUFADUM]

One dumb question though: I find it a little embarassing to have a well developed upper body with these piddly arms. Should I do more isolations?

My lower body well I can only do so much but at least it looks somewhat proportional. My Physio therapist also suggested I drop the compounds for about 5 weeks and do ISOs for legs (Leg curl, Leg press etc). He basically said deal with getting your legs back then once you think they are start doing the compounds again. I thought that would be a good idea. The thing that I see though in order to do something comparable to a deadlift you have to do at least 4 exercises

(leg press, leg curl, back extension, abs). I think I may follow his advice but that would increase the workout time maybe splitting upper/lower days?

 

[colby2152]

No offense, but your physiotherapist is an idiot. You want arms? Compound movements such as Dips, Chins, Deadlifts, Rows, Military Press, and Pullovers will give you big guns? Worried about a disproportionate lower body (not sure if you are)? Work out your legs with DL and Squats, and then do some sprint training with plenty of nutrition around the training.

 

[AKUFADUM]

No offense taken

Anyway I am doing the big compounds (Bench, Dips, Chins, Rows, Military, pullovers).

I am doing deadlifts and hack squats both very lightly because of the knees.
Plus the recumbent bike as well.

I figured it was a dumb question

 

[colby2152]

It wasn't a dumb question, especially when you have a doc/therapist telling you something. Your current routine is fantastic, so why change it? What size are your arms, and how long have you been lifting? How long have you been doing HST? Diet plays the most important role once your training is established... how has that been over the past year(s)?

 

[AKUFADUM]

Measurements and complete routine are here

My arms:
Upper Arms: 15/15.6 (l/r flexed)
Forearms: 12.5/12.75 (l/r)

I have lifting off and on for about 15 years HST for the last 1.5 years (or so) I have had great results with HST both strength and size.

Though I am cutting at the moment.

 

[colby2152]

Do not expect hypertrophy in your arms when cutting. You may experience loss of size (but not atrophy) due to adipose tissue in your arms. Do not fret until your arms are not growing and your diet is a bulk of some sort.

 

[EL_VIEJO]

<div>
(AKUFADUM @ Feb. 05 2008,08:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My Physio therapist also suggested I drop the compounds for about 5 weeks and do ISOs for legs (Leg curl, Leg press etc). He basically said deal with getting your legs back then once you think they are start doing the compounds again.</div>
I know this is anecdotal, but when I stopped doing leg extensions and leg curls and started deep squatting my knee problems went away. Actually I think the leg curls gave me more knee pain than the leg extensions. I know these are good rehab exercises when done with light weights, but I think they really put unnatural stresses on the knees when done with heavy weights. Leg presses could also be a problem for your knees AND your lower back (observe the average person doing leg presses and you'll see what I mean about lower back). If you try deep squatting start off with very light weights or even body weight. Proper form is a must.

 

[TunnelRat]

<div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Feb. 05 2008,16:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Leg presses could also be a problem for your knees AND your lower back (observe the average person doing leg presses and you'll see what I mean about lower back).</div>
I dunno if I'm the average person, but I usually manage to hurt myself doing leg presses. Somehow my lower back doesn't stay straight when I'm in that machine. Squats are much better for me...!

 

[quadancer]

Just my opinion on arms and isos.
If you're lifting heavy enough to stimulate the arms, compounds are enough alone to maintain or grow guns. I feel that for some guys though, their lift strengths aren't enough to really hit an arm that is within a certain percentage of overall BW or mass. There's no reason to choose any 'percentage' since this is individual specific. Here we are again with the old experimentation adage: you have to find out what works for you by doing things consecutively long enough to determine success or failure. And that's going to only be on a bulk for the case of hypertrophy.
I've been using a &quot;halfway&quot; solution lately of doing bicep isos one workout and tri's the next. It returned me to my genetic limit of 17's, but now I'll be on the experimental wagon again after a bit of cutting so I can bulk again. But with a shoulder messed up and an elbow showing signs of overuse, I doubt highrep work will be the answer.
Next, I believe that preservation is key when cutting. Too many of us have failed to change our workouts to accomodate the lower cals, and did too many reps and/or too light weights, leaving our Shotguns looking like .22 squirrel rifles. Then we had to play catch up when we got on a bulk, instead of surging forward into new cannon country. This wasted gym time. With this problem in mind, I suspect that iso's during a cut would only be beneficial as heavy lowrep work, if done at all.
Lastly, you could make my mistake of being on a perpetual bulk that eventually turns into fatdaddy maintenance and get nowhere further. Henceforth the reason we cut: simply so we can bulk again. How easy it is to forget that basic principle. (I speak of myself only)

 

[Fausto]

Wise rant from the Quad man

Yeah, once again info proves how little physio's know about weight training, shame.

the good old &quot;bad for the knees&quot; issue.

Stick to what you know works, do your compounds and you'll get your guns back in shape, if at all (seems to have worked for me), include one superset back to back, incline d/b curls followed immediately by either overhead extensions (e-z bar or d/b your pick), one set only to end the workout!

My humbel 2 cents

 

[QuantumPositron]

I would trust the physio at first. I have successfully improved upon injury treatment recommendations, but you should take an experts advice as that - advice, and serious advice. Not &quot;screw that&quot; but &quot;ok, this could be for real.&quot; I'm not about to recommend squats or something only for you to follow it and destroy a knee. I don't know anything about knees. Do you?

When I was in high school I tried out for tight end on the football team. After a few practice sessions my left knee filled with so much fluid it was stiff and it was painful to bend. I went to a free sports medicine clinic held every Saturday morning at the regional hospital. The doctor concluded that a tendon in my knee that ran under the inner side of my patella was easily aggravated. There was little risk of damage and no need for surgery. He recommended that I strength train the leg and handed me a pamphlet full of quarter squats against a wall and straight leg raises. He said if I did these it would be better in 3 - 6 months. I thought it was ridiculous. Even at the wise old age of 16 I knew that ultra-low resistance would not entail a strength response beyond a week of training. At that time I was doing Peter Sisco's Static Contraction Training. I began to do static squats, going down until my knee was just over my toes (I couldn't handle any deeper and I had heard this was safe). Every 1 - 2 weeks I had to blow 40 bucks on two 45lb plates. In 3 months time I was static squating 560 lbs and my knee was completely trouble free.

I made my choice to deviate from recommendations because if I was wrong all that would happen was more pain and stiffness and I would know to back off. The destruction of my knee was remote. The cost of being wrong was small. The risk of being wrong was small. If this is not true for you I would think twice before deviating.

Like Quad said, heavy compounds will tax the arms and may be unnecessary, even counter productive. I have had this happen to me. On the other hand, 500 lb + benchers at Westside still do triceps exercises. I would do them until they don't pay off.

 

[quadancer]

Yes, but let's consider that the westside guys are probably doing low low reps for the better part of their cycle for strength...I would assume their isos are to add volume, a wise necessity in some or most cases. I'm not so sure that they do them when on the high volume part of the cycles though, do you know?

 

[QuantumPositron]

I'm not sure either. I haven't committed to learning the system yet. As I understand it they train 4 - 6 sets traditional bodybuilding style to cause hypertrophy. The other two components of their system is &quot;Max-Effort&quot;, which are doubles and singles, and &quot;Dynamic Strength&quot;, which entails high speed lifting with around 50% 1 RM. Just to complicate things, they do all manner of lift variations and use a number of different bars on top of that. I don't recall them periodizing their hypertrophy training like we do.

My own experience was while doing HIT. I got up to 290 lbs on close grip pulldowns. My grip and biceps hurt more than my lats the next day. And I was following Mentzer's advice of doing pullovers before the pulldowns! Doing biceps curls didnt seem to pay off. Being a tall thin guy, I will probably run into this problem again - which is why I am so stoked about pullover machines. Today my core strength failed before my legs during squats. And I had to spend my precious bicep building time on fixing my rotator cuff. I am all messed up.