Advice Please

B

bgates1654

New Member
I need advice on whether or not to continue doing squats and/or deadlifts. I am not certain if this is just my body saying, "Hey, watch it idiot!" or if this is an actual injury.

Here is a semi detailed log of the injury and the days following.

I was doing 10RM A2G squats on wednesday. In the middle of my second set I lost balance forward low in the squat. I ended up on my toes with my knees way to far out in front of my feet, but did not drop. It was kind of a rocking motion forward then back. There was no pain or tightness at the time of the incident, so I pushed up after I regained my balance and stance, then racked it. Since there was no pain I finished my set... again with no pain.

However, when I was stretching at the end of my workout I had pain in my left leg, on the front, just right of the kneecap. Later that night my right knee began to hurt on both sides on the front. The left seemed okay that night. The next day I had some stiffness in the morning but no pain, just a slight twinge. I noticed my knees crackled more than normal.

Friday, was a deadlift day. My knees were feeling okay, but a little stiff. I warmed up with about 30 BW squats, 5 reps of 70%, 3 reps of 90%, then did 2x10RM working. The BW squats went fine with minor complaining from the knee... it wasnt really pain as it was mildly annoying. At 70% there was some crackling but no pain, nothing. After that everything was fine and dandy. Stretching at the end definitely know that I did something to my knee wednesday though. Trying to stretch my left ham caused pain at the back of my knee and my range of motion was 85-90% or normal. Same with the quad stretch, but at the front on the sides of the kneecap. Right knee seemed okay.

Saturday, woke up with some stiffness and some mildly annoying "pain". It was mostly not noticeable throughout the day barring occasional aches. Range of motion and pain from stretching was the same as friday. Massaging the kneecap itself felt like it was massaging a sore muscle... you know that minor pain, but good feeling. It felt the same massaging the back of the knee and the sides of the kneecap where the pain was located duiring stretching.

Sunday, while I was training my cousin on squat, deadlift, and pendlay row form, I had some minor aches doing BW A2G squats and 115lb deadlifts. I think this is due to stretching close to the limit of my shortened ROM. The ache remained for about an hour.

Today, no ache and I havent tried to stretch.

So I am thinking, if I continue to do squats I need to shorten the range of motion. It will be more like a 90 degree squat than an A2G. Should I drop weight to the 15RM if I continue squats? Should I just stop weight progression for a while? If I stop squats should I fill the gap with deadlifts? Should I stop deadlifts? Should I just go 15RM on squats and deads? Am I just being paranoid?

Thanks in advance guys!
 
Shortening the ROM in the squat actually increases the strain on the knees and lower back to more than the full ROM causes.

At this point, it's time to take a little break.  When you start back, start with weights LIGHT enough to handle with perfect form.  When you get that, work your way back up to where you need to be.

One nice thing about HST is during the 15's, you are working so light for at least half of them that you have a wonderful opportunity to really perfect the form without risking injury from the weights, same for the 10's and 5's.  Where the programs that have you working to failure will hurt you if you don't have everything just right before starting them.
 
I'm not sure a full break is necessary at this point. I can give my knees the break they need by stopping squats/deads for 2 weeks or so, while continuing the rest of my cycle. I should be able to start at 15s again for deads/squats after that and progress as previously until an upper body joint starts complaining. Doing this I dont think I will get within a week of my 10RM for squats. I would then SD and, by starting a new cycle, give my knees another dose of 15s before I start loading them again.

I am not sure form is the issue. I have been squating with what I believe is good form for a year now with no mishaps previously. I have also squated with 50lbs more than what I was using with good form. I am fairly certain this was a fluke.
 
bg: If you were doing your 10RM when the incident occured then you were pushing it pretty hard even though the weight was well below your 1RM. If you lost balance then either your motor coordination was screwed up due to fatigue, you had a lapse in concentration or your form is not as good as you think it is.

The first problem can be helped by resting a bit longer between sets. The second problem is something you should never let happen again and is a warning to always stay focussed. The third problem can be addressed by getting a vid made of you squatting or by asking the opinion of someone who knows good squatting technique and form. If you can, get Rippetoe and Kilgore's book, 'Starting Strength.' It's a must read.

To aid healing, I reckon you will find a deload is smart for a week or two. Either take a break from squatting (and deading) or do some 15/20 rep work. Don't do half squats either - you'll just be tempted to use more weight and the shear stress on the knee is higher too.

Hope it heals up soon.
 
Whether you take time off, deload, or just continue while watching your form be sure to proceed carefully.

It's easy to have a slip of form and injure ourselves. I've been squatting and deadlifting for over 3 years now. My form is pretty good too. I sometimes do powersquats, sometimes olympic squats, sometimes box squats. I've had lots of practice with them all.

A couple of months ago I was warming up and only had 120 on the bar. Lost focus only for a second when I came up out of the hole and leaned forward just a bit. I felt a slight tweak in my midback and decided pulling the pin on that workout would be a good idea in the interest of safety. Did my stretching, massage, ice, heat...all the standard anti-inflammation things. Even so, from that light weight, I ended up flat on my back for over a week and was unable to workout for a month.

Be very careful not to push it and get a real injury please.
 
Lol, it was probably a mix of 1 and 2, and I wont rule out the possibility of 3.  I will have to try to make a vid sometime.  I do not trust any of the people at the gym I workout at to truely be able to judge whether or not I have good A2G squat form.  I work out at a Bally's and I have not seen anyone else do A2G squats.  Very few even do 90 degree squats.

I have been toying with the idea of getting that book.  Maybe its time to stop thinking and start ordering.  I have been looking for more info on squats/deads to make sure I am using correct form.  The intarweb hasnt been very helpful.  From what I understand this book has a real nice section on squats.

I had originally thought just to drop squats and continue deadlifts, but I think you guys are right about giving it a rest for a while.  I am going to continue my cycle without squats/deads for 2 weeks then restart the progression on those lifts.  I will also move from pendlay rows to machine rows in the interim.  I will try to get a squat vid early on in the 15s.

Vagrant, sorry to hear about your recent unintended vacation from the weight room. Glad to see you back in the game. That is quite a repertoire of squat styles. I have only ever done the olympic style.

Darn... I was hoping for big things this cycle!  Figures it comes in the form of a problem.  I was hoping to get some good progress on my squat and deadlift becuase they are lagging behind in relation to my other lifts.  Ah well, no sense in rushing. I have 20+ years to work that out.  Besides stretching, massaging, and heat/ice what else can I do to speed the healing process along?  Oh by the way it actualy feels pretty good today and I have recovered most of my ROM when stretching although it still does ache a bit in the stretch. Also I do some cardio machine stuff (mostly elliptical) as a warm up. Should I avoid that as well?
 
Hey, here's an idea. Since you go to a commercial gym, just take a week or two to take care of those knees then do trap bar deads instead of squats and deads.

The trap bar dead is a squat/deadlift all rolled into one. Not exactly the same as either one, but definitely is a mass builder. Just switch to that and continue your progression from where ever you will be in your training cycle with the trap bar.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I work out at a Bally's and I have not seen anyone else do A2G squats. Very few even do 90 degree squats.</div>
Haha! Here in Atlanta, Bally's is more of a yuppie singles club from what I saw when I did some drop-ins.
I would take some time off for healing. As you said, there's plenty of time, and you're still working your upper stuff. Or do highrep lightweight lactic acid buildup sets. But a few missed workouts would be wise to err on the safe side.
 
I do squats on monday, wednesday, then deadlift &amp; leg press on Friday.  Get 2 days rest before picking up squats again on Monday.  

Doing deads on Sunday after squats on Friday might not be enough rest.  I'd stop doing both exercises for at least a week, let them heal, then resume doing squats/deads in the fashion described above.  

Yeah, Bally's is a yuppie joint, but I love the place.  Whenever I'm traveling they always let me in free, and I don't know why.  I guess they think I'm moving there or something.  It's only them though, Gold's or all these other gyms I've been to make you pay.  In Bally's everyone is always huddled around the dumbbell racks doing curls in the mirror or gathered around the bench having a small fry bench contest.  The squat and power rack area is left alone, which is perfect for me.
 
Heh up in the Akron area it was a total yuppie club, like SteveJones described.  Since I moved to Cincinnati, its actually not too bad of a place.  You still get the crowds around the dumbells and the flat bench, but at least 3 people (myself included) deadlift and plenty of people squat.  Its just that most of them do a quarter squat while some do half squats.  The powerrack and squat rack are sometimes occupied by people doing BB curls though.
mad.gif
There are quite a few pretty big guys there, but its a somewhat affluent area where the gym is and I think vitamin S abounds.  The hallmarks are all over the place.  I am still waiting to get approached about &quot;some good supplements that will make me grow like a weed.&quot;

There is another gym in the area, but it is super yuppie.  Its $80/mo+270 signup.  I wouldnt go there if they paid me though.  The locker room is full of naked old men that carry their towels around.  The 3rd day of my week trial there I was walking the locker room and noticed they had a large jaccuzi with a little waterfall thing.  I was thinking, &quot;Hey thats pretty sweet! I could totally relax in there for a few after a workout!&quot;  Then this fat old guy gets out of the thing buck-frickin-naked.  I blurted out, &quot;OH MY GOD, WHAT THE ****?!&quot; which caught the attention of everyone.  Screw that.  If I were in there and anything brushed against me I would immediately start throwing punches, so I just stayed away.  That scarred me rather badly.  I get flashbacks everytime I see a hot tub/jacuzzi.
 
LOL!!! I saw people come in to Bally's that sat on a machine with a towel over their shoulders talking, and left without even working out! What a waste of space!
 
So yesterday I decided to try out my knee with some BW squats (1x15) and empty bar squats (1x15) with the new knowledge I gained from the squat section of the Starting Strength book.  My quads are sore now, lol. My knees feel great however. The movement incorporated using Ripptoes technique feels more natural than what I was using. I still dont understand the hamstring bounce idea becuase I seem to have gained enough flexibility in my hamstrings that I can go to rock bottom without feeling stretch.
 
<div>
(bgates1654 @ Jan. 03 2007,21:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So yesterday I decided to try out my knee with some BW squats (1x15) and empty bar squats (1x15) with the new knowledge I gained from the squat section of the Starting Strength book. My quads are sore now, lol.</div>
That's great BG, &quot;Starting Strength&quot; is a good book. Kind of old, but what worked then still does.

Don't forget, if you need it, ibuprofen is a great anti-inflammatory. It's supposedly catabolic. But it relieves the pain and inflammation, allows you to heal, and in that end is a good thing. Take up to two weeks if need be - beyond when you stop hurting to continue with healing without new pain.

I'll take slower muscle growth over possible debilitating joint injury any day.

And - glucosamine, if it works for you, is safe to take bid or tid for life.
 
''Don't forget, if you need it, ibuprofen is a great anti-inflammatory. It's supposedly catabolic. But it relieves the pain and inflammation, allows you to heal, and in that end is a good thing. Take up to two weeks if need be - beyond when you stop hurting to continue with healing without new pain.''

I would definitely NOT take an anti-inflammatory and keep working out, thats begging for an injury.
 
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