Amount of sets?

Z

Zepphire

New Member
I'm doing a pretty vanilla approach to HST for my first cycle.
Friday's my last workout of 15's, so far I've done 1 set during 15s. I'm thinking of doing 2 sets during 10s and focus on getting all 10 reps on my first set, and just do the second set till near failure (about 1 rep short) or to 10, whichever comes first.
For 5s, I think I'm gonna try for 3 sets, possibly 2 in the later workouts and apply the same principles.

Should I allow zig-zagging? I think this is the best option because it'd allow me to get some more volume in and with the frequency of hst, I doubt it even matters if I'm using less weight than my RM for the previous mesocylce.


Thanks.
 
Zigzagging is a good thing , it promotes more productive cycles by lessening fatigue accumulation so that at the tail end of your cycle when it really matters most - you have the OOMPH necessary to finish strong.
IMHO as always...
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(colby2152 @ Aug. 08 2007,22:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Either do as many sets as you can without hitting failure, OR you could go with the constant volume approach.</div>
So that basically comes down to what I suggested? Keeping the reps fairly constant while avoiding failure?
 
I never really understood how zigzagging could be useful until I learnt about single factor training vs. dual factor. Try reading up on it sometime.
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(Kazzin @ Aug. 09 2007,21:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I never really understood how zigzagging could be useful until I learnt about single factor training vs. dual factor. Try reading up on it sometime.
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Okay, thanks, will do
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I have already settled on zig-zagging, but still wondering if the volume I mentioned in the first post would be okay?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have already settled on zig-zagging, but still wondering if the volume I mentioned in the first post would be okay?</div>

Its the standard volume used, just during 5's keep it up to 3 unless you cannot do it, then drop to 2.

Cheers
 
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(Fausto @ Aug. 10 2007,06:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have already settled on zig-zagging, but still wondering if the volume I mentioned in the first post would be okay?</div>

Its the standard volume used, just during 5's keep it up to 3 unless you cannot do it, then drop to 2.

Cheers</div>
Okay, volume is settled then. 1x15, 2x10, 3(or2)x5
But what if I can't complete the second set during 10s or the second or third set during 5s? Should I stop a rep short of failure, go to failure and stop, or cluster after I hit failure and resume the set, a minute or so later, until I get the desired reps?
 
Clustering is a good option once you know you can't complete the additional sets, not getting 10 or 5 on the second set is really not an issue!

But to ensure that the total volume is completed clkustering is the best option, once on 5's you can happily switch to max stimulation and do 20 with the m-rest period, its a way to go!
 
I would stop shy of hitting failure for any set where I'm not trying for a RM. Having spent much of my youthful training sessions hitting failure on every set, every session, I now limit failure training to just those sessions where I'm going for a new PR or at the end of each mesocycle. I don't see any point in training to failure at other times (unless you are specifically training for strength and/or fatigue tolerance) especially if you are trying to save your CNS as much as possible for the heavy stuff later in the cycle. Russ nailed it in his post earlier.

So, in answer to your question, I would do as many reps as you can for your second set, whilst keeping good form, but stop when you feel pretty sure you could still get another rep. The nearer you get to failure the sooner fatigue will set in again on a subsequent set (even after a reasonable rest period).

Clustering reps is a good way to get the required amount of work done without overly taxing your CNS and getting more fatigued than necessary. Do look into Dan Moore's Max-Stim training methodology to see these ideas taken to their logical conclusion. Even if you don't do a full cycle of Max-Stim, it is a brilliantly useful way to extend the 5s and push for some new PRs.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see the Great Fausto pipped me to the post!</div>

Just like the pied pipper!
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You're a gaz, Lol.
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So the choice between stopping just before failure and calling it a day ( for that exercise ) and clustering remains.. What would you recommend for a first time HST-er?

Thanks for all the help guys
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(Zepphire @ Aug. 10 2007,17:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So the choice between stopping just before failure and calling it a day ( for that exercise ) and clustering remains.. What would you recommend for a first time HST-er?

Thanks for all the help guys
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Bump so I can get my last question answered
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(Zepphire @ Aug. 12 2007,09:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Zepphire @ Aug. 10 2007,17:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So the choice between stopping just before failure and calling it a day ( for that exercise ) and clustering remains.. What would you recommend for a first time HST-er?

Thanks for all the help guys  
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Bump so I can get my last question answered
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IMHO - you would be best served by doing regular sets/vanilla style your first progression. Familiarizing yourself with HST and how your body responds to it will be invaluable in future cycles , especially if you decide THEN to personalize or tweak things.
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(Zepphire @ Aug. 12 2007,15:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Zepphire said:
So the choice between stopping just before failure and calling it a day ( for that exercise ) and clustering remains.. What would you recommend for a first time HST-er?</div>
Stopping before failure and clustering are not mutually exclusive - clustering is a way of making sure you get the number of reps you want in without hitting failure.

Actually I've just re-read your post, are you saying you will definitely stop before failure but don't know whether just to end the session there or make up the reps by clustering? If so I'd say cluster...so if you're doing 2 sets of 10 and can only get to 8 on the second set then wait for a bit then do 2 more.
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Ok, so for my first cycle I'll just stop a bit before failure or get the desired number of reps in if I can do so without failure, and leave clustering for a later cycle??

edit: robefc, on your hypothetical example, are those 8 reps done to failure or just shy of it?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">IMHO - you would be best served by doing regular sets/vanilla style your first progression. Familiarizing yourself with HST and how your body responds to it will be invaluable in future cycles , especially if you decide THEN to personalize or tweak things.
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And what exactly do you mean by regular sets/vanilla style?
 
What I'm advocating is setting up your first cycle correctly so you don't NEED to cluster - if you NEED this to complete your first cycle the loads where not calculated properly IMHO.
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BTW - before anyone reads more in into it than I'm saying I want to make clear that I have nothing against MAX-stim techniques. I just feel that NEEDING to use it on a &quot;proper&quot; HST progression would indicate &quot;optimistic&quot; RM assessment in the cycle planning stages and the lifter would be better served in the long term to &quot;adjust&quot; the loads , and add the whole experience to the long list of things he/she will learn in that first virgin cycle that kind of had to be experienced to really &quot;get&quot; as opposed to read about.

          The &quot;problem&quot; I see is that the &quot;virgin&quot; HSTer COULD be more than just a little off on predicting RMs and end up &quot;max-stiming&quot; themselves into a PL territory of singles 3/wk if they misunderstood Max-stim as easily/often as we witness noobs expessing confusion over HST basics. (admittedly an extreme example).


           The CNS effects of doing this for 6-8 weeks could turn someone off on HST permanently.


Vanilla is 1x15,2x10,3x5 ,with correct load programming - failure before set completion should only be an issue (maybe) at the last two of 5's (again maybe). The last of 10's should be hard but not &quot;undoable&quot; w/o clustering (IMHO).

            Plus - learn to walk then run... just my opinion .
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(Zepphire @ Aug. 12 2007,17:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">edit: robefc, on your hypothetical example, are those 8 reps done to failure or just shy of it?</div>
Not to failure - usually a good signal for when you need to stop is when you start to slow down.

I agree with russ though, you should be able to get the required number of reps in sets without clustering until the last session of a rep range or at the most the second from last.

The way I look at HST though is very simple, I work out a reasonable starting weight for each exercise and then just increase the weight every session, so I'll start with a couple of sets of 15, when I can't get 15 easily without going to failure that will drop to say 13...then 11...etc etc.

Using the standard protocol of 15, 10, 5 might be easier to start with I guess though.

Cheers

Rob
 
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