Another question regarding Strathegic Deconditioni

R

Rain

New Member
Sorry if this has been covered somewhere in the forum, I have looked around for an answer but haven't been able to find one.

So here's my question:

I'm about to start my first HST cycle ever. As I understand it, one cycle will be 6 or 8 weeks long, depending on if I choose to do the 2 weeks of 15's when starting my 2nd cycle.

Considering that this is my first HST cycle, and that I probably will have to do some trial-and-error adjustments along the way, is it still recommended that I take the 9-12 days off before starting my 2nd cycle?

Since the purpose of Strategic Deconditioning is to accomplish "a reversal of some of the acute adaptations in muscle tissue, referring specifically to the repeated bout effect", I wonder if it makes any difference that this is my first HST-cycle ever. Maybe I could do, for example, another cycle of 6 weeks, directly following my first cycle - excluding the 15's - before taking the 9-12 days off?

Maybe I should mention that I've been training more or less regularly for about 20 years, so I'm not new to training, just to HST.

Any opinions on this would be appreciated!

Regards,
R
 
I don't think it matters that it's your first cycle... you should still SD after so that you can avoid RBE... I believe the only time that it might be ok to skip SD is if you're cutting.
 
12 consecutive weeks, especially for an experienced body builder such as yourself, may be too long. Generally, longer cycles are better than shorter cycles but by 12 weeks, especially since your muscles have been trained for years, you'll probably be experiencing a great deal of the repeated bout effect. I know it's hard to take 12 days off of training, but it truly is essential and a crucial part of HST.
 
finish on the friday start again the following monday 9 days...you can post your routine up on here and the guys can help you get it right.. :D
 
If you've been training regularly up until the time you are starting HST, then you definitely need to take the SD. The longer one would be better. Just because you haven't done HST does not mean your muscles aren't conditioned. If you don't take an SD, your gains will not be very good, in my opinion, because the weights throughout the 15s, 10s and possibly part of the 5s will not be effective, depending on how heavy you have been lifting recently.
 
Hello Rain :)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Maybe I should mention that I've been training more or less regularly for about 20 years, so I'm not new to training, just to HST.
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If you were in training less than a week before you started your first HST cycle, you should have done SD first.

If you were not training for a time before you started your first cycle, then treat that time off as SD already.

But after your cycle you still have to SD, no matter what happened before you started the cycle. Simply by virtue of getting to lift your 5RM for a few workouts, more than half of your next cycle will be practically insignificant already in terms of hypertrophy if you don't SD, because of the repeated bout effect.

The exception to this is if you are cutting. Cutting means you are less concerned about hypertrophy. Instead you want to lose much fat while preserving as much muscle as possible. Since cutting usually involves much much less food than usual, it is not advised you SD, because no SD means no training, and no training means not enough muscle stimulation. Muscle stimulation is necessary because combining not enough food and not enough muscle stimulation is a sure fire way to lose muscle faster.

Other than that, always SD after a cycle if you are after hypertrophy.

Regards,
-JV
 
Thanks for the input, I'll do SD after my first cycle.

Another question, a which maybe should be in it's own thread, but i'll give it a shot:

I know that the weight should be incremented for each rep range, that is for 15's 10's and 5's, so that I at the end of each rep scheme will reach my max for that number of reps.

But how does this apply from a cycle-to-cycle perspective? I mean, after SD, when starting my 2nd cycle, should the starting weight for the 15's ideally be heavier than it was in my 1st cycle?

Regards,
R
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rain @ Aug. 12 2005,4:51)]after SD, when starting my 2nd cycle, should the starting weight for the 15's ideally be heavier than it was in my 1st cycle?
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Yes, ideally it should be :-)

If HST works, it will be...

But then, depending on your training history, it might be possible that you have reached some upper level of strength training...

It will also depend on your increments, if they are small and often, chances are strength will increase more than if you choose large increments, incrementing once every other workout or so.
 
OK. I'll probably do 15's, 12's, 10's, 8's and 5's instead of only 15's, 10's and 5's, but I guess that's OK?

The reason for this is that I'll probably reach my rep max in the course of one week, so if I'm to do 15's for 2 weeks I'll have to go to low in weight to begin with.

Regards,
R
 
I just read this in the HST FAQ:

"If you feel really sore, this is actually GOOD news! what just happened to you is that you successfully lowered your minimum effective weight. That is perfect! This allows even less weight to be used and still grow. Now you should take note of this and plan your next cycle accordingly. Don't lower your 15RM, just lower your starting weight next cycle (make sure your SD is just as effective/long as well). This allows greater increments during the 15s, and an overall greater progression of weight used over the entire cycle. Once again, perfect!"

This contradicts daxies statement...can someone clarify this for me?

Regards,
R
 
Yes, that rep scheme is fine. The notion of 15's, 10's and 5's is there to keep things understandable--any rep scheme works as long as it accomodates for the ever increasing load.

At the end of a cycle, some people choose to add an extra 5 or 10 pounds to all their rep maxes while some re-record their new maxes. This is what I prefer, but be sure to test your new maxes right at the end of your cycle, not after SD.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rain @ Aug. 12 2005,8:33)]I just read this in the HST FAQ:
"If you feel really sore, this is actually GOOD news! what just happened to you is that you successfully lowered your minimum effective weight. That is perfect! This allows even less weight to be used and still grow. Now you should take note of this and plan your next cycle accordingly. Don't lower your 15RM, just lower your starting weight next cycle (make sure your SD is just as effective/long as well). This allows greater increments during the 15s, and an overall greater progression of weight used over the entire cycle. Once again, perfect!"
This contradicts daxies statement...can someone clarify this for me?
Regards,
R
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Nope, it doesn't...

What I say is: "your strength, and thus your RMs might have risen during the cycle, so you can use the new RMs as a new target weight".

For example 15RM before was 100, after a cycle it turns out to be 110

What the FAQ says is "because of the SD, the minimum effective weight is lowered"

Which means that before the minimum weight to induce hypertrophy was for example 80. Because of the deconditioning, it might have lowered to 70. While before the SD using 70 as a weight, wouldn't have caused any soreness at all (due to your conditioning to that weight), using 70 after the SD might cause soreness (because you are deconditioned for that weight).

theoretically, if both happen (both the strength increase, and the drop in minimum effective weight) you could have this:

1st cycle going from 80 -> 100

After the RM increase the 1st cycle caused, and after a good SD your cycle would be 70 -> 110

Meaning the spread would be bigger, meaning you have more progression through the cycle, meaning more hypertrophy, meaning bigger you...

Hope I explained it this way.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rain @ Aug. 12 2005,5:40)]OK. I'll probably do 15's, 12's, 10's, 8's and 5's instead of only 15's, 10's and 5's, but I guess that's OK?
The reason for this is that I'll probably reach my rep max in the course of one week, so if I'm to do 15's for 2 weeks I'll have to go to low in weight to begin with.
Regards,
R
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you wont have to go to low if you do it like this say your max is 1ook instead of starting at 75like this
75,80,85,90,95,100,
do it like this
90,90,95,95,100,100,
there is no harm in repeating a weight as long as you progresively overload.
also the problem you might find by doing 15,12,10,8,5, is there might be a lot of zigzaging.
 
Hey :)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]OK. I'll probably do 15's, 12's, 10's, 8's and 5's instead of only 15's, 10's and 5's, but I guess that's OK? [\b]
Click to expand...


Yep, that's fine, you can go with what's more comfortable with you as long as you don't deviate from related HST principles, which in this case is prominently progressive load.



[b said:
Quote
Click to expand...
[b said:
]you wont have to go to low if you do it like this say your max is 1ook instead of starting at 75like this
75,80,85,90,95,100,
do it like this
90,90,95,95,100,100,
there is no harm in repeating a weight as long as you progresively overload.
also the problem you might find by doing 15,12,10,8,5, is there might be a lot of zigzaging.
Click to expand...

Faz nailed it in the head. You can repeat a weight to extend certain rep phases if you want. Zigzagging is also no problem. But like I said earlier, go with what you are more comfortable with and makes you like your training more, as long as you don't deviate from HST principles.

However, if this is your first HST cycle, I wouldn't want to recommend doing anything but the basic HST cycle presented by Bryan. But there really is no harm in tweaking already, as long as you take the time to fully understand the HST principles. When you understand them fully, you will be able to tweak your routine however you want while making sure you are going to get good muscle growth because you are still following HST principles.

Regards and good luck!
-JV
 
Thanks for breaking it down for me, guys. I think I got it now.

My biggest problem is that next week will be SD, when I just wanna get right into the action... :) I guess I'll just have to do a lot of walking.

Regards,
R
 
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