Any advice for arms? (&my HST experience)

[TestoKitty]

I started doing HST at the end of january 2006. I'm just finishing my 3rd cycle. The first one i did as instructed, but for the other two, i left 15reps weeks off, so i made it a four week cycle (doing only 10 & 5 reps).

First of all, i'm a life-time natural. I've been able to put more weight on every exercise i've been doing. For example, when i started HST, i was able to bench 264lbs for 5 reps, and after the second cycle i was able to do 286lbs for 5 reps. I've also started getting stretch marks (which i've never had before), and they've always came during the last week of 5reps. I'd say (from what i see when looking at mirror) that my lats have gained some size, and also my triceps, calves and quads. Maybe even delts, especially front delts. However, my weight has remained the same, and it looks like to me that i've put on some fat, so my "muscle gains" could just be in my mind

My concern is, my arms seem to get smaller all the time, even though i think my triceps looks a bit bigger. But as i've measured them, i think i've lost about half and inch during HST. Also, when i flex my biceps, i feel like i've lost that "connection" between my mind and my biceps, so to say. It's difficult to explain, but when i flex my biceps, i don't really "feel" the muscle, especially my left bicep, the way i did before, no matter how hard i try to flex it

So what have i been doing for biceps?

At all HST cycles, i've been following the method that i do first week of every rep range 2 sets/exercise, and the second week i make 1 set/exercise

During the first cycle of HST, i had only one exercise for arms. Then, when i wasn't happy with the (non-existing) progress, i added one exercise more. So now i've been doing 2 exercises for biceps. They've been preacher curls & concentration curls, and now in my last cycle barbell curls & concentration curls.

So if someone has any advice for lagging biceps in terms of HST, i would be more than happy to hear it

 

[Sarge]

added bodyweight = added strength = added size = added arm size ....


eat up brutha.

 

[bluejacket]

a few thoughts come to mind.

were you trying to stay at the same wgt for the past year+?
all your lifts got stronger as your cycles progressed, your wgt stayed the same but you lost 1/2" on your arms. this doesnt sound right. are you sure you measured the same way and the same place each time?

to be honest the only concrete numbers you gave were wgt (stayed the same) and arm size (down 1/2&quot everything else was .....maybe bigger, looks better, stretch marks, could be fat etc etc. take some measurements now of all these body parts and write them down. then you can track exactly the progress you are making.

as sarge said it could just simply be a matter of eating more so your arms (and whole body) can grow but i havent heard of too many folks who have gotten stronger, think theyve added some muscle, havent lost any overall wgt yet lost 1/2" of arm size.

not sure about the mind/muscle connection problem your having. hopefully others will have some input on that one

 

[Fausto]

Hi Testo

One thing that comes to mind is that it could be because of some fat loss, usually fat deposits sit on your triceps.

Another thing to consider is that to put on an inch on your arms you have to gain 15 pounds of body weight...so as Sarge says...eat up!

I do a superset for my arms consisting of one curl and either pushdowns or french curls, however you can do a lot of different things, 21's seems to come to mind.

Needless to say, arms are not exactly my priority but I do them when I feel like, which could be once p/week sometimes more, my routine is based around compounds.

 

[TestoKitty]

First of all, thanks for the advices. I know that main problem with my training is the nutrition. I think that i still don't eat enough.
Anyway, I finished my third cycle of HST today, and took some measurements and write a few thoughts (i wrote them on my text editor program so i'm copy pasteing it here, that's why it may look strange)

29.11.2006, before the first cycle of HST (1inch = 2,5cm / 1cm = 0,4 inch)

Right calve 39cm
Left calve 40cm

Right bicep (no-pump) 43,3cm
Left bicep (no-pump) 42,5cm

Left thigh (16cm away from knee cap) 53cm
Right thigh 52,5cm

Chest (nipples height, without expanding)110cm

Waist (navel height) 93,8cm



16.3.2007, after my third and last cycle (so far) of HST


Right calve 40cm (+1cm)
Left calve 40,5cm (+0,5cm)

Right bicep 43 (-0,3cm)
Left bicep 42,5 (+-0)

Left thigh 55cm (+2cm)
Right thigh 53cm (+0,5cm)

Chest 113,5cm (3,5cm)

Waist 94,5 (+0,7cm)

Some thoughts:

-The first measurements was taken approx. 3 hours after my second workout of FIRST HST CYCLE. These latest measurements was taken after my third cycle of HST, an hour after workout.
-After first cycle, i had lost about half an inch from my waist. Now i've gained about and inch. I think the loss came from doing 15reps, and now, since i left them out from my last two cycles, in my opinion that caused the fat gain. Correct me if that doesn't make sense

-I said that i've lost about 1/2 inch from my arms. Now the measurements don't say quite that much. But still, i haven't gain any size on them, like on other bodyparts.
-I've had an injury in my right knee. It was operated last summer, and in the beginning of the HST I was able to train legs, but now the injury seems to be coming back. I think that due to the past injury, when i've trained legs i've always been careful with my right knee, and due to that, during an exercise i automatically use my left leg more to get the weight up. That could cause the difference in growth between legs

Conclusion:

According to measurements, most of my bodyparts seem like they've grown a bit. I'm very happy with the gain in chest. All the weights i've been using, have also gone up. So i'm very happy with that too. Of course, according to my waist measurement, i've gained a bit fat too, but not too much i think. My only dissapointment is my arms

 

[Firminator]

<div>
(TestoKitty @ Mar. 15 2007,19:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I started doing HST at the end of january 2006. I'm just finishing my 3rd cycle. The first one i did as instructed, but for the other two, i left 15reps weeks off, so i made it a four week cycle (doing only 10 &amp; 5 reps).

At all HST cycles, i've been following the method that i do first week of every rep range 2 sets/exercise, and the second week i make 1 set/exercise

During the first cycle of HST, i had only one exercise for arms. Then, when i wasn't happy with the (non-existing) progress, i added one exercise more. So now i've been doing 2 exercises for biceps. They've been preacher curls &amp; concentration curls, and now in my last cycle barbell curls &amp; concentration curls.</div>
A few things I would do.

You say you did a 4 week cycle on your last cycle(2-10's &amp; 2-5's). IMHO - you gotta extend the 5 rep part of your cycle until you can't take anymore and need a break. I'm approaching 54 yrs old and I can always go at least 5 weeks of 5's and I train at least 5 workouts a week. There are so many ways you can extend your 5's such as drop sets and clustering. There's some great muscle building going on for most of us when we are doing 5 rep sets.

All of us have certain body parts that respond better than others. I can walk past the weight rack and my chest grows. My arms and shoulders however are a real struggle. I've tried everything for my arms including not training them at all. What I have settled on is alternating Barbell Curls and standing E-Z Bar curls each workout. I do 1 set during 15's, 2 sets during 10's and 3 sets during 5's. So at the end of the week of 5's I've done 15-18 &quot;work sets&quot; for biceps. It's what has worked best for me.

I would also do away with the concentration curls if I was trying to put on size - can't handle enough weight on them. Maybe you could do Barbell Curls for your A workout and Preacher Curls for your B?

Good Luck
Firm

 

[quadancer]

Firminator - I'm a year younger than you, and my arms have sort of hit their limit too. Just wanted to say I magically gained a little doing the 5x5's...and only doing arms once a week. It's possible that us older guys are even more sensitive to overreaching or catabolism (or just have more of it).
The arms started coming up when I tweaked the 5x5 and instead of just doing 3 sets of progressive load, I started doing 4-5 sets to failure, with the two-day layoff right after for recovery. I realized that there was allready progression for them happening during the other two workouts, so &quot;friday&quot; (whatever day that hits on) became my ramping to max day. It worked; I'm back to the 17's of my yesteryear.

 

[TestoKitty]

<div>
(Firminator @ Mar. 17 2007,10:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(TestoKitty @ Mar. 15 2007,19:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I started doing HST at the end of january 2006. I'm just finishing my 3rd cycle. The first one i did as instructed, but for the other two, i left 15reps weeks off, so i made it a four week cycle (doing only 10 &amp; 5 reps).

At all HST cycles, i've been following the method that i do first week of every rep range 2 sets/exercise, and the second week i make 1 set/exercise

During the first cycle of HST, i had only one exercise for arms. Then, when i wasn't happy with the (non-existing) progress, i added one exercise more. So now i've been doing 2 exercises for biceps. They've been preacher curls &amp; concentration curls, and now in my last cycle barbell curls &amp; concentration curls.</div>
A few things I would do.

You say you did a 4 week cycle on your last cycle(2-10's &amp; 2-5's). IMHO - you gotta extend the 5 rep part of your cycle until you can't take anymore and need a break. I'm approaching 54 yrs old and I can always go at least 5 weeks of 5's and I train at least 5 workouts a week. There are so many ways you can extend your 5's such as drop sets and clustering. There's some great muscle building going on for most of us when we are doing 5 rep sets.

All of us have certain body parts that respond better than others. I can walk past the weight rack and my chest grows. My arms and shoulders however are a real struggle. I've tried everything for my arms including not training them at all. What I have settled on is alternating Barbell Curls and standing E-Z Bar curls each workout. I do 1 set during 15's, 2 sets during 10's and 3 sets during 5's. So at the end of the week of 5's I've done 15-18 &quot;work sets&quot; for biceps. It's what has worked best for me.

I would also do away with the concentration curls if I was trying to put on size - can't handle enough weight on them. Maybe you could do Barbell Curls for your A workout and Preacher Curls for your B?

Good Luck
Firm</div>
Thank's a lot for advices

Now that i just finished my 5reps yesterday, i would of course love to try extending them for a few more weeks. How would you recommend me to do it, because obviously in my previous workout i was using my maximum 5 rep weights in all exercises? Should i just keep doing with the same weight, and increase it if it starts to feel lighter?

Of course, in next cycle i will calculate the weights and increments according to plan of doing 5 weeks of 5reps

One thing i've obviously also been doing wrong, is having too many exercises in one workout. I've had 12 exercises in each workout (i do 3 workout/week), which, after reading other people's workouts here, seems to be too much

 

[Firminator]

<div>
(TestoKitty @ Mar. 17 2007,18:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Firminator @ Mar. 17 2007,10:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(TestoKitty @ Mar. 15 2007,19:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I started doing HST at the end of january 2006. I'm just finishing my 3rd cycle. The first one i did as instructed, but for the other two, i left 15reps weeks off, so i made it a four week cycle (doing only 10 &amp; 5 reps).

At all HST cycles, i've been following the method that i do first week of every rep range 2 sets/exercise, and the second week i make 1 set/exercise

During the first cycle of HST, i had only one exercise for arms. Then, when i wasn't happy with the (non-existing) progress, i added one exercise more. So now i've been doing 2 exercises for biceps. They've been preacher curls &amp; concentration curls, and now in my last cycle barbell curls &amp; concentration curls.</div>
A few things I would do.

You say you did a 4 week cycle on your last cycle(2-10's &amp; 2-5's). IMHO - you gotta extend the 5 rep part of your cycle until you can't take anymore and need a break. I'm approaching 54 yrs old and I can always go at least 5 weeks of 5's and I train at least 5 workouts a week. There are so many ways you can extend your 5's such as drop sets and clustering. There's some great muscle building going on for most of us when we are doing 5 rep sets.

All of us have certain body parts that respond better than others. I can walk past the weight rack and my chest grows. My arms and shoulders however are a real struggle. I've tried everything for my arms including not training them at all. What I have settled on is alternating Barbell Curls and standing E-Z Bar curls each workout. I do 1 set during 15's, 2 sets during 10's and 3 sets during 5's. So at the end of the week of 5's I've done 15-18 &quot;work sets&quot; for biceps. It's what has worked best for me.

I would also do away with the concentration curls if I was trying to put on size - can't handle enough weight on them. Maybe you could do Barbell Curls for your A workout and Preacher Curls for your B?

Good Luck
Firm</div>
Thank's a lot for advices

Now that i just finished my 5reps yesterday, i would of course love to try extending them for a few more weeks. How would you recommend me to do it, because obviously in my previous workout i was using my maximum 5 rep weights in all exercises? Should i just keep doing with the same weight, and increase it if it starts to feel lighter?</div>
I would do another week or two using my 5 rep maxes. At that point you may feel like you can add some weight on some exercises. If so, I usually do. That probably means clustering for me.

For instance I can incline bench 235 for 3 sets of 5. When I move to 245 I usually end up with sets of 5, 4, 3, 3 to get my 15 reps. I can do this for a couple more weeks. If I have a day where I'm struggling mentally or physically I might do a drop set of 245 for 5 reps, 205 for as many as I can get, then 185 finally 135. That's it for chest that day.

If I feel the same way the next workout too I know it's probably time to begin my SD but I still finish that workout then SD.

If at anytime during this process, I have two workouts in a row where I just don't feel like working out or my joints start to hurt too bad (they always hurt a little - I'm 54  

) I know it's time for a one week break.

Takes some time to learn what works for you.

Good Luck
Firm

 

[quadancer]

Firm, are you talking about a break or a 1 wk. deload?
I deload at 12-14 days, but when I'm still in a program and feel like that, I just take two days between workouts and that works for me. Doing it now, because I should be cutting, but am at maintenance (because I'm lazy) and/or I should SD...it's hard to stop when I get into the big weights. I'm stronger than I've ever been in some things, thanks to the 5x5's, and I really look forward to that workout once I get over DOMS.

 

[Firminator]

<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 18 2007,13:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Firm, are you talking about a break or a 1 wk. deload?
I deload at 12-14 days, but when I'm still in a program and feel like that, I just take two days between workouts and that works for me. Doing it now, because I should be cutting, but am at maintenance (because I'm lazy) and/or I should SD...it's hard to stop when I get into the big weights. I'm stronger than I've ever been in some things, thanks to the 5x5's, and I really look forward to that workout once I get over DOMS.</div>
Quad - I'm not sure what a de-load is. When I get to the point when I have consecutive bad workouts or when my elbows are really hurting I just take 9 days off. Maybe a de-load is something I could use - what is it exactly?

Thanks
Firm

 

[Lifting N Tx]

<div>
(Firminator @ Mar. 18 2007,14:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad - I'm not sure what a de-load is. When I get to the point when I have consecutive bad workouts or when my elbows are really hurting I just take 9 days off. Maybe a de-load is something I could use - what is it exactly?</div>
I'm not impersonating Quad, but I've been following this interesting discussion.

A deload is basically lowering load, volume and/or frequency for a week or two to allow recovery from accumulated fatigue. A common way for those doing 5x5 would be dropping from 3 to 2 days a week frequency, but keeping weights the same. Maybe doing 3x3 instead of 5x5, or just less sets. Usually it's done for one-two weeks.

 

[quadancer]

9-14 days off from lifting. It's the main principle that makes HST work. It's all in the articles section. 7 days leaves you still in condition to where the submax weights won't really do any good for growth. A really true SD has been said on these forums to be a month, but who's gonna lose that much time?

 

[Lifting N Tx]

<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 18 2007,16:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">9-14 days off from lifting. It's the main principle that makes HST work.</div>
We might be getting into a question of semantics here. That definition is exactly textbook for SD.

I'd say that SD is to deload as Cod is to fish. One specific type of the general thing. The theory of SD is a little different from what is usually intended for deload, but the action is the same. I thought you were perhaps talking about a non-SD deload since you mentioned the 5x5.

It's probably not incorrect to say &quot;deload&quot; if referring to SD, but is less confusing to call it SD in the context of an HST program. Otherwise people are likely to interpret the term in the more general use of deload that I described.

Anyway, interesting discussion on 5s and post 5s. I'm approaching the 5s in an HST cycle myself and have been thinking about how I want to handle the post 5s. I'm not sure about the original arm question. Mainly given a compound oriented routine I find it sufficient to add some curls, given that my triceps respond pretty well to pressing exercises.

 

[quadancer]

Ack, I was thinking SD, sorry guys. Firm was saying 9 days off rather than cutting back on anything.
Good clarification there, Tex.

 

[abarlament]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">- SD is used to decrease fitness level (A.K.A. conditioning).
- Periodization is used to increase fitness level.

- SD is used to increase the micro trauma associated with training.
- Periodization is used to decrease the trauma associated with training.

- SD is used to reduce work capacity.
- Periodization is used to increase work capacity.

- SD is applied irrespective of the need for “rest”.
- Periodization is applied according to the need for rest.

- SD is not based on “peaking” performance.
- Periodization’s sole purpose is to allow the athlete to peak (strength/performance) on a specific date.</div>

These are some of the differences between deloading and SDing, taken from the faq (just sub deload for periodization). The principle behind deloading is to decrease a variable of training (usually volume/frequency, load is usually maintained) in order to allow supercompensation.

Say you've been on an overreaching program for a while and are about to crash and burn, that's when you take a deloading week or two to allow your body to catch up and shoot past its previous best.

 

[quadancer]

jGood post Ab, and that leaves some of us with the unasked, unanswered question of what we should do when switching between the two programs. I specifically refer to HST and the 5x5's so many of us do.
I have thought about it but haven't seen the light come on yet. Obviously, an SD is required before HST. But going from HST to 5x5?
My guess is a deload is all that's needed.

 

[jwbond]

Have you changed your carb intake? Changes in glycogen can make a big difference.

Did you measure EXACTLY the same way last time?

I noticed the measurements were done at different times, this is most likely the culprit. Try measuring them cold and then again post workout, you might be surprised at the size difference (which would coincide with the time differences as well)


Good luck!


PS - I am jealous! I am at 16&quot; cold and 16.5&quot; post workout. My goal is 17&quot; cold, which appears you are already at!
(I fear my height of 6'2&quot; may make my goal that much harder with these long arms!)

 

[abarlament]

<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 19 2007,18:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">jGood post Ab, and that leaves some of us with the unasked, unanswered question of what we should do when switching between the two programs. I specifically refer to HST and the 5x5's so many of us do.
I have thought about it but haven't seen the light come on yet. Obviously, an SD is required before HST. But going from HST to 5x5?
My guess is a deload is all that's needed.</div>
Between 5x5 and HST I'd do a SD, since that is what it's meant for.

But from HST (I'm assuming you are going thru the 5s) to 5x5 I wouldn't take any time off. Maybe a week at 15s if your joints hurt, but I'd go straight from your 5s into the 4th week of 5x5 and continue trying to set PRs. Once you can't progress any further, then I would deload and peak. What I mean is once you don't feel you can set PRs on the typical 5x5 scheme, cut volume and frequency by 1/3, and continue adding weight to the bar.

 

[scientific muscle]

At 6'2&quot; you should get big arms no problem...the longer arm the bigger they can get! The only problem is, the taller you are the smaller they look relatively.

A 5' guy will have huge arms at 17&quot;...while at 6'2&quot;, 17&quot; will not look nearly as big on long arms.

I am fairly tall also, and my biggest problem is keeping weight on my frame...It seems like I have to eat like a horse to get over 200 lb.s. I am getting very close!