basic routine with dropsets

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hey guys

I did about 6 hst-routines good results,I love the theory and the practice and will stick to it for a looong time.I just realized that when I do a basic-hst-routine I never really have DOMS.when I integrate dropsets or rest-pause-reps from time to time, I get DOMS and the muscles feel and look so much more like growing.. integrating those techniques does not mean going to failure (as you always can stopp before failure) but just increasing the intensity with no need to add more sets.
so I am thinking about a whole basic-hst-routine with adding an intensity-technique and just 1 set per exercise

most of all the drop-sets look very interesting,as they spend additional metabolic-work and increasing intensisty a lot.no need for them during 15's but starting afterwards with them
that would keep workout-time very low and help the ones who love metabolic work and very hard workouts.

what do you think are the downsides using this methode?
do you guys think more sets would spend more benefits because of the additional mechanical strain?
and is mechancial strain really higher when using more sets than when working out with drop sets,means a lot of reps very close to failure?

(I know that I can not use dropsets with squats and deads)

thx for your thought on that

hannes
 
DOMS is not an indicator of hypertrophic response. Neither is "the pump". Drop sets shouldnt be necessary in the 15s and 10s. If you are finding your work outs too easy then you may have missed your true RMs. If not, then slowing down rep speed will give more "intensity" due to higher TUT. It will also avoid having to spend time messing with drop sets.

However, many people do an extra set of metabolic work in the 5s and negatives. From what I understand they only do work until they feel significant lactic acid build up. You could do static holds, partials, drop sets, etc. How you do it is up to you. If you think you can handle it then just add another working set. The main thing to be aware of is maintaining your CNS health. Beating yourself on the 10s and 15s because they dont seem hard enough can be very detrimental to getting good workouts in the 5s and negs.

From what I understand, when you start hitting failure and the weight gets harder and harder to move its not the muscle that is weakening, its your CNS. Doing a lot of reps close to failure doesnt do anything extra in terms of hypertrophy (although it may for strength in terms of neural conditioning).

Why cant you do dropsets for squats and deads?
 
I think you could do dropsets for deads and squats; it would just take two extra people.
I'm liking the idea of Hannesburke's, but some consideration needs be addressed, aka Mr. Gates.  It still seems feasible to me for a cycle, if one could set it up as a progression that doesn't bullwork the CNS, of course. The whole idea of 3+ times a week would be a constant not to be changed, but you could set up the routine submax just the same, only you would be doing a different thing.
I'm thinking of single sets of progressive rest-pause work, which, when done in the failure method, are an extreme shocker to the body, and so much more effective than just rest-pause techniques. Unless you guys talk me out of it, I may do a cycle of them this winter.
    Here is a description I wrote last year of the PRP method for failure training:
Progressive Rest-pause:
This is NOT for beginners or the timid. It is one set of six sets. You should only do one set for a given muscle inside a week. Period.

Grab a stopwatch or a watch with a second hand.
Do your warmup sets. Then begin:

You take a weight that you will fail on at rep 10 and do so.
REST - 10 seconds.

Push (or pull) it again for as many reps as you can; should be close to ten again.
Rest 15 seconds.

Push it again to failure.
Rest 20 seconds.

Push it again.
Rest 25 seconds.

Push it again.
Rest 30 seconds.

Push again; you may only get 2 or 3 reps by now.

Stretch and Go home.

If you did all the "sets" to failure and did not cheat the rests, you will have even pumped up the most argumentative muscles you have with this. This is for medium to advanced lifters only; not beginners! It's truly hardcore.The weight stays the same, the reps will just go down, but are possible because each rest is longer than before, which gives you some great mental status to hang in there. Only one of these in any given week for a given muscle group or you'll actually overdo it.
Dont forget to stretch or you'll be sorry!

Obviously it would have to be tweaked to use for HST, if it would work at all. I haven't given it much thought until now. Hmmmmm....
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Quad - guys

I think I need to intervene in here
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Whilst i like the idea of Hannes, staying close to failure, improving the metabolic stress by doing some drop sets
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I must say one does not measure muscle growth by using DOMS, but I know that DOMS makes you feel like you did something properly.

In HST the feeling is rather diminished, more like something you cannot quite can call pain but it is there reminding you you did some work, although DOMS might happen after a lengthy SD!
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Quad - that workout example is not in line with HST, we tend to call that "frying your muscles" but actually what it "fryes" is your CNS.

To get that intense without the side effects it is much better to go Dan's route of max-stimulation.
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Dropsets don't increase the intensity, they increase the volume. It won't necessarily do more for you that doing another set at the full weight would do. Personally, I just do a few high rep sets to hit the whole body if I feel the need, and only in the 5s, like bgates described. Dropsets could work too, but I wouldn't bother with them in the 10s and 15s.
 
Just to add some questions here.

With HST obviously load is the key...Like you I have always like drop sets b/c of the feel. But I guess as some of the guys have said feel doesn't matter its the increase in load and not DOMS...but for some reason being sore makes you think you are doing more.

So I could see were just doing one extra set at your recommended load would be prefferred.

However one benefit I think would help is after you do your regular set, woulddn't a high rep drop set be good for recovery (not muscle growth ) but recovery?

I am thinking the high rep set would pump more blood and nutrients to the muscle therefor aiding in the recovery for the next workout.

Any thoughts?
 
I do one set of drops for 10 reps with the 10's and 2 sets of drops for 5 reps each with the 5's. It's is quicker and more intense with the same volume and less work load than regular sets. I never go to failure and never get injured. I am not a big fan of multiple regular sets as many studies have shown a rather large decrease in benefit from incremental regular sets. Also, I do not believe that it is the actual work load that counts so much as how much your muscle "thinks" the work load is.

Besides, I am too freakin' old to change!    
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Even Bryan has mentioned before (I think for triceps) that because he gets elbow pains, he first does a set of pushdowns then completes that with single d/b extensions or skullcrushers using less weight but kinda getting the effect he is looking for.

So this drop sets does have its place in HST!
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Fausto- agh, once again I must clarify my random idea train. My bad.

What I was proposing/supposing was to perhaps do the PRP stuff short of failure, and 3x a week, HST style instead of 2x. As I said, trying NOT to hit the CNS. I had posted the original article as it was for failure training.
As a comparison, a drop set reduces the weight as the muscle tires, and PRP keeps the weight, but adds longer and longer rests. Same results, no spotter needed IMHO.

I'm no expert; that's why I bug you guys with my junk!  
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I'm definitely going to try it for a time on my hams, since my chirocracker just told me no more SLDL's or deads anymore. And I just started them!
So, since I stalled out on leg curls, this looks like a plan, same time to do them as (or close to) max-stim...and very similar.
 
Actually, i could see doing something like that once every two weeks, at the end of your rep block, if you want to push for more strength. Take a couple days recovery, drop down the weights since you are starting a new rep range, and you should be fine. Failure training every now and then can be a good thing. I might try it out.
 
<div>
(Old and Grey @ Aug. 22 2006,14:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, I do not believe that it is the actual work load that counts so much as how much your muscle &quot;thinks&quot; the work load is.

Besides, I am too freakin' old to change!    
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</div>
But O&amp;G, surely you are harking back to the old HIT ways and pre-exhaust ideas? At the end of the day your muscle is performing work when you do a drop-set and that does count towards possible future adaptation. But, do more reps with a heavier load and you will have done more work and put more strain on the muscle tissue. Just because fatigue causes a lighter weight to feel heavier actually doesn't make it any heavier, so you are doing less work and causing less strain. But perhaps it's not as simple as that? I mean, there's the erk1/2 pathway which I guess drop sets would trigger?  
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If you try a set of Max-Stim for the first time (say a set of curls with your 5RM load) you will find it a very strange experience indeed (perhaps you have already done so?). The feeling of fatigue is almost done away with but when you get to a point where you can only just continue to lift the weight (at about rep 15), you'll experience an ache deep inside the muscle. In a bunch of regular sets, I guess the feeling of fatigue masks this?

I do think that performing drop-sets is a good way to add more work in a shorter time and very safely too. There may also be cardio and neurological benefits? But, purely for hypertrophy, and from all that I have read here, my feeling is that a heavier load for more reps will be more effective. Deciding how many reps that is, however, is the next problem. Sticking with 15 to 20 throughout a cycle seems to work pretty well for most of us.

What do you guys think about this?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you try a set of Max-Stim for the first time (say a set of curls with your 5RM load) you will find it a very strange experience indeed (perhaps you have already done so?). The feeling of fatigue is almost done away with but when you get to a point where you can only just continue to lift the weight (at about rep 15), you'll experience an ache deep inside the muscle. In a bunch of regular sets, I guess the feeling of fatigue masks this?</div>

Completely agree! Although I found Max-stim to be difficult to implement in some exercises because of re-racking etc, it is a damn good method of beating fatigue and using the same loafd for a whole lot more reps
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That to me is ultimatelly the difference between what you were proposing, Quad and a better way of getting the same thing done! Mind you I also like to do drop sets as O &amp; G too but since I found max-stim I use whenever I can, drop sets I reserve for biceps mainly when I am in the mood for a more intense feel!

On the other hand if we promote such ideas as it was written, we will end up confusing the newer members so...for clarity;s sake, this is an enhancing technique
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I mean, there's the erk1/2 pathway which I guess drop sets would trigger? </div>
Correct. Drop sets, like high-rep sets, can be used for metabolic work. They are actually one of the many techniques that can be used to bring up metabolic work after the main work sets. I mainly utilise a high-rep set (15-20 reps) for that purpose, but I may also use drop sets where applicable.

Metabolic work sets can be thought of as &quot;bonus&quot; sets. Heavy work sets target primarily the p38 pathway, which is responsible for most of the growth we see anyway. Metabolic work sets, on the other hand, target primarily the erk1/2 pathway. The erk1/2 pathway, although less of a contributor than p38, seems to facilitate hypertrophy (that is why I said &quot;bonus&quot;).

So, drop sets, when utilised as metabolic work inducers, have nothing to do with old theories like &quot;complete exhaustion of the muscle&quot;, &quot;intensity&quot; etc etc. They are merely another weapon in our arsenal, just like many other well-known techniques.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They are merely another weapon in our arsenal, just like many other well-known techniques.</div>

A good way of putting it, Dimitris!
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I normally will use a drop set for biceps and triceps.

I look at the 1st set for my arms as the &quot;real&quot; set were I try to increase load as often as possible.

Then after completing the 1st set I will do a drop set for the burn.
 
I like that idea too, Joe - it may be that the PRP, drop sets or Max stim are nearly equals in many ways, a supplementary tool that is used as needed (of course not by newbies to any program) and one or another would probably benefit each of us differently, I.E., the PRP did better for me than Max Stim, or I just didn't hang with it long enough...my workouts were gettin stupid long!
Your method of using a shock technique after doing a set of progressive weight makes a lot of good sense.
 
thx a lot for the interesting discussion following my hint.

I definately know the theory behind HST and I also know that our first goal here is to put progressive strain on the tissue (P38) and afterwards (if at all) looking for erk1/2 (metabolic work).

but isn't it possible that adding techniques after doing a set of progressive weight (dropset, RP...) causes more p38-activity than a second regular set,because the muscle-tissue gets more strain (that is what O&amp;G called:the muscle thinks it get more load than it effectively does)?

I know the feeling is not the indicator that counts but why does a (douple-)dropset causes so much more DOMS than a second regular set does? For me thats a clear indicator that the tissue received more strain, say more p38-activity.

DOMS comes mostly from excentric movements and stretch and you wont get DOMS if you work with same movements and same weights. DOMS means that there has an extra-effort been done (if it is not because of changing excercises) and isn't this what p38-activity actually is about??

So when you perform 2 regular sets and you feel a little sore afterwards, with dropsets you got slight DOMS and weight-progression isn't hampered, which one would you chose?
(and do not forget that you got the extra benefits of erk1/2-stimulation when using the drops)

thx again for your thoughts on that

regards

Hannes
 
DOMS is not necessarily indicative of growth. It is necessarily indicative of inflammation though. Don't rely on DOMS to tell you what is working correctly, because it is a big fat liar and you cannot trust it.

What the muscle &quot;thinks&quot; is irrelevant. Doing a set of 5 with 200 lbs, then dropping it and doing another set is not going to do the same thing to your muscle that 2 sets of 5 with 200lbs would do. It doesn't matter that you are fatigued, that won't change things. Your muscle won't think 150 lbs is 200 lbs just because it is fatigued.
I'm not saying dropsets are useless - they are useful, but not for causing more strain. Mostly they are useful for getting the metabolic work in as 9to5lifter already described.
 
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