Been 4 months with no results..Big help needed

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by kai, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. kai

    kai New Member

    Ive currently been working about for about 4 months and a bit now, and the problem is, I've had simply very, VERY little results to this.  I can lift heavier weights, but, there is no show on my body at all..my biceps still dont show, triceps are near to none, the only increase seem to be my chest.  I have been researching n reading about HST for a while now, and i think i want to give it a try since Im up for just about anything now..Alot of the trainers at the gym are pretty puzzled on why i am not growing either since I have started lifting heavier then those who have been lifting long before me, so please can someone give me some advice on how to get started with HST since it is the only thing that it seems like i havent given a try..
    Btw, i've been eating alot, both proten n carbs and having my daily intake of 1g of protein per gram of body weight, but nothing seems to be helping..
    Any help would be very much appreciated..
     
  2. You ment 1 gram per kilogram of bodyweight, the protein that is. You should consume 1 gram per POUND not kilogram, or in that range. This should perfectly explain your lack of progress.
    Shoot it up to 2 grams per kilogram of bodyweight and watch what happens. An SD period might be in order before you recommence lifting.

    EDIT: Also the way you talked about eating tons of carbs and protein, while getting that little protein, also raises the question are you absolutely sure you are getting enough total calories? And where's the dang fat? You need at least 100 grams of fat per day for optimal progress.
     
  3. kai

    kai New Member

    sorry sorry! i meant one gram per pound!..i weigh about 160 pounds and i've been consuming about 160 pounds of protein per day..40 pre workout, 40 post work out, 40 later in the evening and 40 before sleeping..
     
  4. 160 pounds protein per day! lol! :D

    Sorry, I know it's easy to confuse the units when typing in English (are you from Finland too, as your name might suggest?). No offense meant!!

    So if your strength is going up but your bodyweight stays the same, you simple are eating too little total calories. As simple as that. Really. That's all there is to be said.

    Start upping the calories, start getting more fats.
     
  5. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Probably nothing much will. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need that much protein, in fact, too much protein can hinder gaining mass - the relationship of the proportion of protein to carb intake AND mass gain is a curve, where the most mass gained is when you consume around 15% protein and 85% carbs - that's not etched in stone though. Some studies also point that 0.7 - 1.5 g of protein per KG of bodyweight is great. Using that knowledge in conjuction with the mass gain curve, you can see that consuming enough protein, correct amounts of fat (approximately 30% of your caloric intake), and the rest (a heck of a lot) should be carbs. Of course, your total calories should be high enough to start with - like 18x your lean body mass.
     
  6. Well the protein is up there in the 2 grams per kilogram range right now, but according to your formula, it should be 94,5 grams per day which is definitely not enough. The mass gaining formula of 18 * something is total body weight, not lbm. Even still, 15% of calories from protein from that number is still too low by numerous studies concerning weight lifters.

    What is this curve you are talking about? I have never seen anything about anything like that and I really can't see how one could hinder mass gains by changing the ratio of 15/85 to 30/70, assuming total calories are in the 18 * tbw range. This 18 times thing is a starting of course, some may require even more calories.
     
  7. kai

    kai New Member

    no im actually not finnish..from bangkok, thailand..but wait..so its all about the protein intake or what..or just more calories needed..if its just calories needed..i'll start pigging out on food..(good food of course) not only fats..hope it works!
     
  8. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    To gtwr:

    Some quotes from the FAQ:
    0.7 - 1.5 g per KG has been mentioned many times before, and was generally agreed upon both by Dan and Aaron F, although initally they had miscommunication on the unit of measurement if I remember rightly. I can't find the references right now.
    Not really, and I don't recall any studies that show it is. Or perhaps you are referring to studies that use indivuduals who are on AAS.
    Keep on reading more nutrion stuff. Hopefully, however, the stuff above already gave you some starting points.
    Yes, which is why I only said "like 18x".
     
  9. kai

    kai New Member

    one more thing..so would it then be a good idea for me to give HST a try..because for now..im just doingmy usual gym routine and as i said..only gainining strength, no real features showing..so HST a good idea?
     
  10. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    To gtwr:

    And also look at this thread, so I don't have to repeat all the stuff I said there (long thread, and I had lots of stuff I said there): Also about nutrition Lots of good stuff there, aside from just nutrition and protein thing.

    I'll see if I can get more references to clear up stuff. Don't count on it though; reading and collecting studies and references is one thing, but searching for specific ones in my archive is a different kettle of fish altogether, and I'm pretty lazy at it unless I'm writing a book or something like that.
     
  11. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    To Kai:

    Yes, HST is a good idea. I doubt you'll get a different answer, this forum being the home of HST.
     
  12. Kai, first of all at least I, and perhaps others, misunderstood that you had been trying HST for 4 months. If you mean that you are a beginning lifter completely, ie. these are the first 4 months ever you've been lifting, it is VERY common to first gain strength with no noticeable muscle mass gains. Be patient, gains should start coming soon.

    However, your calories are too low since at least you should've been gaining fat if you indeed were eating more than expending. So yes, start pigging out on food. Leave the protein where it is since I think it also is within the limits of what jvroig said, (0.7 - 1.5kg per kg).

    Jvroig, I appreciate your time and energy on this. I will very gladly stand corrected if I can consume less protein in the future. I know about the oxidation increasing with excessive intake etc. I will be back with my own studies later today, but mine come mostly from Lyle's Ketogenic Diet book. These numbers are of course from dieting individuals which is a different scenario but I didn't realize protein requirements could get that low when in hypercaloric mode. Thanks a ton for the info [​IMG]
     
  13. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Well, that explains why we didn't meet eye to eye. When dieting, protein is kept high for better TEF, which we want to avoid when we are bulking.
     
  14. kai

    kai New Member

    yes i am a complete beginner at weight lifting and have started for 4 months..and yes i havent tried HST but stumbled across it from reading forums and so on because i want to know the most efficient ways to make use of the time im spenidn in the gym and the results to show..

    so one last thing...i got everything about the HST but what exactly are negatives:
    "Repetitions will decrease every 2 weeks in the following order: 15 reps for 2 weeks Þ 10 reps for 2 weeks Þ 5 reps for 2 weeks Þ then continue with your 5 rep max for 2 weeks or begin 2 weeks of negatives."
    so what exactly do you do in the last two weeks?..im really puzzled by that
     
  15. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Simply put, if you are not gaining weight then you need to eat more. You should be gaining weight regardless of your training. Take care of that first before worrying about how to modify your training. Once you are gaining weight consistently each week, then you can look further, into your training.
     
  16. kai

    kai New Member

    i must admite..this is one heck of a forum...u sure get all the answers u want..in good fashion too:)..well thank u to everyone thats been helpful to me and i will make sure i do do what has been recommened..hopefully sum 4 months from now i can post a picture of how i look then! ahahha...oh wait..one last things..what is a negative set..i mentioned above..but no one seemed to know?

    "Repetitions will decrease every 2 weeks in the following order: 15 reps for 2 weeks Þ 10 reps for 2 weeks Þ 5 reps for 2 weeks Þ then continue with your 5 rep max for 2 weeks or begin 2 weeks of negatives."

    so what exactly do you do in the last two weeks?..im really puzzled by that..thanks agaain for eveyroen's help! and sorry if im being very complicated and hard to understand..but i am a beginner at this
     
  17. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Negatives mean you concentrate only on the eccentric portion of the lift, not on the concentric because you can't lift it by yourself anyway since you'll be using loads in excess of your 1RM.

    For example, if your max bench press is 200, you load 220 on the bar, then a friend helps you lift it up. Going down, however, you are on your own and you slow it down as much as you can. Then, your friend helps you lift it up again, and you repeat it over adn over again until you reach your rep count.

    If you are alone, the negatives you can do safely are probably DB curls (lift with both hands then lower with just one) and chins (strap a lot of weight on your weight belt, stand on a chair, grab the bar then lower down slowly)
     
  18. Conciliator

    Conciliator New Member

    If protein intake is > 15% and one is not gaining weight, why say that protein intake is too high?  We're talking ratios here, not absolute amounts. The ratio of protein can be dropped just as well by saying that carbs or fats should be increased (which makes more sense as I'll explain below). Saying that "too much protein can hinder gaining mass" is true, but misleading, as it makes it sound like there's a protein problem and not a calorie problem. The simple fact is that the thermic effect of food (TEF) from the higher protein will mean a lower effective caloric intake. As we all know, if caloric intake is too low, you won't grow. I think it would be more accurate and less misleading to say that "too much protein can decrease the effective caloric intake, to levels insufficient for growth."  So it again goes back to insufficient calories, not protein per se. The possible solutions include not just decreasing protein, but also increasing carbs and fats.

    Note that the study you mention that found 15/85 to be optimal was looking at the quantity (rate) of weight gain, and NOT the quality of gain (muscle/fat ratio). What they found was that 15% of total calories from protein was optimal in terms of weight gain/caloric intake. Basically, at protein intake above and below that, more calories were wasted as heat (dietary thermogenesis). One problem, though, is that they didn't take activity/training into account, which could certainly change things. Another is that they were looking at percentages, and not absolute amounts, as I've mentioned. Carbs and fats can be increased just as easily as protein can be decreased, to lower the protein ratio to 15% (not to mention that the ratio is irrelevant when more calories are consumed to compensate for the thermogenesis, bringing about the desired growth rate).

    In my opinion, it'd be a much better idea to keep protein at 1g/lb and, if weight gain seems hindered, increase the overall caloric intake to compensate for the protein induced thermogenesis.  At least that way you can be confident that protein intake is sufficient to meet the needs of protein synthesis.  Might it be overkill, sure, but I'd rather err on the side of excessiveness than insufficiency. I think Tipton had it right in 2004 when he said "Given sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....4971434
     
  19. Conciliator

    Conciliator New Member

    [​IMG]8-->
    Sure, the TEF might be undesirable when you're trying to create a caloric surplus, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
     

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