Benefits of SD

B

beingisbeing

New Member
So I'm assuming most of us except SD as integral to the HST program.

However I've run across the opinion (over at Lyle's) that 1-2 weeks of SD may do little to nothing to truly minimize the RBE and sensitize the muscle to the growth stimulus again.

Does anyone have any observations, anecdotal or better, in support of or against SD?

(Not as a way of soothing joints, resting, recovering etc, I mean strictly for what its intended for. To allow the muscle to grow again with sub maximal loading.)

As it stands now, I feel that 2 weeks of 15's is plenty of an active recovery in and of itself.
 
Count me in the camp of people who think SD is a good idea.

As for anecdotes, all I can say is that, after taking ~13 full days off heavy loading recently of any form for the first time in two years, I was able to "feel" the strain of every rep in my lifts even with very light loads again. This was a sensation I haven't felt in quite a while.

Imho, objection to SD is rooted in one of two things:

1) A fear of not working out all the time. I.e. a psychological need to be in the gym as often as possible.

2) The feeling there is insufficient evidence to support its use.

#2 I can understand, and even agree with - I wish there was more validation for the concept. To the best of my knowledge, though, nobody has ever conducted this research, and it arose primarily out of trial/error (i.e. Bryan trying it out in people who had been stuck not growing a long time). Incidentally, it appeared to "work," like many unvalidated bodybuilding concepts.

#1, however, I suspect is the bigger player for many. The idea of not lifting for a couple of weeks is downright frightening to many people, and despite the fact that many have been relatively stuck for long periods of time without appreciable change, they still don't want to chance "losing" that precious gym time.
 
I was all about it, and it made perfect sense.

And I concur the psychological resistance to it is great, to put it mildly.

Then I asked Lyle about it, and he's not a fan it seems.

Of course he's fallible like all of us. But he brought up a point about RBE lasting as much as 6 months in trained individuals, and the time we devote to SD 'not doing much.'

but then of course Bryan seems to concede in his writing that it does not 'reverse' RBE entirely. Just scales it down 'just enough.'

thanks for the vote!
 
After a 14 day SD I get DOMS even from 15s weights. I know DOMS does not mean hypertrophy but it seems to indicate that there was some deconditioning on the muscle.
 
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(beingisbeing @ Aug. 30 2008,11:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">well that's one issue I have. Soreness doesn't necessarily mean hypertrophy, like you said.</div>
Well, as a thought, let's think of it another way.

At point X in time (i.e. at the end of your HST cycle), weight Y no longer makes your muscles sore.

At point X + 9-14 days in time, weight Y now makes your muscle sore.

What has changed, specifically, between X and (X + 9-14) to allow this to occur?

While there is no good evidence that DOMS is needed for growth, there is some evidence that DOMS is associated with muscle fiber remodeling (as opposed to just damage):

http://www.springerlink.com/content/eclkgth9nwd9ytt2/
 
I agree with what Mikey posted. Good stuff Mike. I used to be one of the most skeptical posters about SD, openly challenging the idea. But the more I learn, the more I realize that Bryan is a bit of a genius and his 'HST model' is genuinely effective: SD and all.
Something happens to our physiology when we take time off from lifting after a hard cycle, and at the very least it gives the body time to heal up.
 
Yeah, I must concur and agree whole heartedly with Mike, I have practiced SD for many years and it does make a difference every time.

I am not however in the business of growing much really but I find HST pretty good even for the maintenance purposes I use it for, ans I sincerely believe if one wants to grow and applies all the required vectors, then ultimatelly the result is growth.

Obviously as one gets more and more used to lifting heavily, the slower the growth gets!
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(Fausto @ Aug. 31 2008,4:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yeah, I must concur and agree whole heartedly with Mike, I have practiced SD for many years and it does make a difference every time.

I am not however in the business of growing much really but I find HST pretty good even for the maintenance purposes I use it for, ans I sincerely believe if one wants to grow and applies all the required vectors, then ultimatelly the result is growth.

Obviously as one gets more and more used to lifting heavily, the slower the growth gets!
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Just out of curiosity, to date, how much muscle have you put on (at a guess) via HST?

If you seem to be stagnated on growth, perhaps you'd make a good candidate for my (tongue-in-cheek) HST 2.0:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....1;st=60

I would be particularly interested in finding labrats who haven't grown in a while, as the conjecture here is that the reason for this could well be an insufficient acute stimulus. Hence an HST cycle based on modified rest-pause starting right after the 15's.
 
Initially my arms grew two inches to 15&quot; or so, but since then I think they are about 15 1/2&quot; at most.

Ok I found a log of April 2005

April 2005 August 2008
Biceps L 13.6/R 14.4 L 14.75/R 15
Calves L 14.5/R14.5 L 15/R 15
F/arm L 11.5/R 11.5 L 11.75/R 11.75
Waist 31.5 32.5
Chest 42 44.5
Neck 14.75 15.5
Thighs L 21/R 21 L 23.5/R 23.5

Some growth since then, but I am not tracking my nutrition too much or too tight, New Zealand has been somewhat good to me in this sense but not professionally.

Progress has been somewhat slow, so yeah...maybe I will give it a bash as I get home, I'll be back in my home gym, and maybe that will be good to me.
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FWIW Mike I played with your method as I understand it in the last workout of my cut (Fri), and found it much more bearable mentally than max stim. Of course you're not going for psychological ease, but just wanted to share.

Mini sets and higher density of work made the lifts more interesting then 'one at a time + count.'

And just as in max stim, I enjoyed the great rush of working with higher than my 5RM in a manageable way without a spotter, etc.

My chest. lower back, and arms have literally been pumped for a day and a half.


I am SDing, regardless, but it seems this going to have to be one of those things we all test for ourselves and draw conclusions.
 
I believe that SDs in some form are crucial for success...and I didn't always believe that, either. It wasn't until ilness FORCED me to incorporate SDs that I realized how significant they were, and how my progress was expedited having taken them.
 
SD although scientifically is debated ....is a good thing regardless of what the science does or doesn't say.

The bottom line is we are all human and the body needs a break every now and again!
 
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(Slapshotz @ Aug. 31 2008,12:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I believe that SDs in some form are crucial for success...and I didn't always believe that, either.  It wasn't until ilness FORCED me to incorporate SDs that I realized how significant they were, and how my progress was expedited having taken them.</div>
thank you slaps

this is precisely the kind of experience I've been looking for.

different results, same individual, with and without SD.
 
yeah as bryan has said, SD doesn't lower the sensitivity to nil again, but it does lower it, there is evidence from what i've read.
 
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(_Simon_ @ Aug. 31 2008,10:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">yeah as bryan has said, SD doesn't lower the sensitivity to nil again, but it does lower it, there is evidence from what i've read.</div>
Good point!
 
I have been using a week off after every 6 - 10 week cycle for a long time. When I first started lifting I would never take off any time and hit a wall for a couple cycles. My mentor suggested both a break from the gym and some change up in my routine. That did the trick. I kept with both as a staple in my routines and the plateaus have been minimal. The gains certainly get slower as you near your potential but the time off does certainly seem to help with restarting the process. This is another reason I was interested in trying HST, I believe in this method of deconditioning and rebuilding because it works. Two steps forward, one step back still moves you forward in the long run.
 
there must be something to it because most on here get some sort of DOMS after going back to the 15s,and although that doesnt prove anything scientificaly it is an indicator that some sort of stimulus has occured.

and lets say it doesnt work as set out,having two wks of isnt going to make you lose muscle,and its  going to benefit in many other ways physicaly and mentally,and everyone is ready to get back after a break&quot;eye of the tiger and all that,stay hungry&quot;.
 
yeah i also find that by the end of the 5s/negs, my motivation is not all that high, but i'm on my SD now (due to illness really), but i am sooooo pumped up for training again haha
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