Best Cycle For Mass

[b said:
Quote[/b] (Stack @ Sep. 14 2005,1:15)]I though we were supposed to wait 48 hours before hiting the same muscle again.
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Actually, the more frequency, the better. As long as your volume is in check, you're good to go. Just listen to your body and adjust mid-cycle if need be. Remember, HST is not a program!
 
Thanks, I get the frequency thing and I get I understand the issues with volume. I just thought one needed 48 hours to recover. Sure HST radically increases volume over a traditional split -- but there is still 48 hours. Right?
 
Why did Vicious go to great lengths in his "customizing HST" thread to recomend higer frequency programs that had more than 24hrs rest time. For example the monday am tusday pm approach. I don't think I remember Bryan or Vicious or others recomending -- same muscle every day. Did I miss something in the reading? I know I could have.

Stack :confused:
 
The common idea amongst the experts here is that a MWF am/pm split is the best. Thats only 8 hrs between workouts, obviously less than 48. The difference is that the am/pm split usually is around 10 sets total, 2x/day, instead of 20 sets 1x/day.

Is it safe to say that frequency and volume should be inversely proportional? Obviously not exactly, but a general trend. Thoughts?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Stack @ Sep. 14 2005,3:30)]Why did Vicious go to great lengths in his "customizing HST" thread to recomend higer frequency programs that had more than 24hrs rest time. For example the monday am  tusday pm approach.  I don't think I remember Bryan or Vicious or others recomending -- same muscle every day.  Did I miss something in the reading? I know I could have.
Stack :confused:
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He was looking at the summation effect as seen in the Haddad studies. It showed a slight trend towards higher values when working out every 24 hours. But the largest magnitude (area under curve) was with 48 hours in most of the molecules they were looking at.

This isn't saying every 24 hours should/shouldn't be done or could/couldn't be done.

Just another way of applying the science.
 
What has been posted already is correct - you could theoretically train fullbody every day. Would you overtrain? Maybe, maybe not if you watch your volume. I've tried it before and I liked it, but for mass gains, I still believe that 3 times a week, 4 times a week at most, is best for mass gains. I like working out every other day, with an AM/PM split when I have the time for a split. It's easier to fit around my family and work schedule and it's a lot easier to get enough food in me to grow.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How would you have enough time to recover your whole body in just 24 hours?
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, not everybody recovers in a 24-hour period!
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If you train the same muscle again in under 48 hours, it likely has not yet completed structural recovery, and this is GOOD because it allows the same weight to better bring about a hypertrophic response.  This is why training every day, or even every half day is effective!  Structual recovery is not complete and the weight can better cause microtrauma.  As it says in the FAQ: "Staying ahead of the structural recovery curve is really key to elicit real growth in a person who has lifted for quite a while." The new microtrama does not interfere with the previous growth, but there is actually a "summation effect;" the new growth will be added to the previous growth.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Here you would have trained your bench press twice at the same weight but you have trained the muscle itself 4 times with the same weights, so has the muscle become resistant to training at light weight even though you are performing different exercises?
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Again, no... the fact that the muscle only has 24 hours to begin structural recovery means that even the same weight should be an effective load, especially at heavier weights (think 2 weeks AT your 5RM)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Could it be argued that training with less volume each workout (1 set per body part) does not increase protein synthesis AS MUCH as training with greater volume (2 sets per bodypart)? (Certainly this is true; for THAT workout, the increase in protein synthesis is less than if you had done 2 sets.  Yet since you did only 1 set, decreasing the volume, you are able to increase the frequency.  It's like looking at 2x3 or 1x6.  Either way, you get the 6 sets, but spreading them out seems to be more beneficial.
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Certainly this is true; for THAT workout, the increase in protein synthesis is less than if you had done 2 sets.  Yet since you did only 1 set, decreasing the volume, you are able to increase the frequency).  It's like looking at 2x3 or 1x6.  Either way, you get the 6 sets, but spreading them out seems to be more beneficial.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Thus training 3x a week at 2 sets would increase protein synthesis more drastically, just not as often, as training 6x a week at 1 set. If this is so, which would be more beneficial for growth during bulking?
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That's the big question.  HST has interpreted the research to indicate that greater frequency with reduced volume is the way to go.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also, as a possible argument towards using a 3x day a week program, would doing HIIT cardio on two or three off days still give you the enhanced protein synthesis/other desired chemical responses as a weight training workout?
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Nope.  The body will adapt very specifically to the demands you place upon it (SAID), and hypertrophy is not what you'll be getting with HIIT.  Not only that, but it'll be burning up the calories you need for growth and push you towards overtraining.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]so what is the best for mass?  3x a week or an am/pm split?
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read above: HST has interpreted the research to indicate that greater frequency with reduced volume is the way to go.  This would suggest an am/pm split is better.
 
ok that is significantly more clear to me now, thanks.
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because of my schedule, i cant lift on certain days and cant go 2x a day on weekdays, i have decided to do fullbody 3x a week and try 6x a week on my next cycle. but would it be benefical to split my Sunday workout in two and do one in the moring and one at night? so i would only be doing 2x a day on Sunday and then 1x a day on Tuesday and Friday.
it seems like doing this would decrease my average wait between workouts from 56hrs to 42hrs and thus add some managable frequency while still keeping volume the same.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (shwaym @ Sep. 15 2005,9:27)]but would it be benefical to split my Sunday workout in two and do one in the moring and one at night? so i would only be doing 2x a day on Sunday and then 1x a day on Tuesday and Friday.  
it seems like doing this would decrease my average wait between workouts from 56hrs to 42hrs and thus add some managable frequency while still keeping volume the same.
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Yeah, I'd split it up when you can.  Two workouts on Sunday and one workout on Tues and Fri would work just fine.  I'd also decrease the volume on the two Sunday workouts.  For example, only 1 set of each exercise rather than 2.
 
There seems to be some confusion as to what we actually "recover".

The "48 hours" or whatever recovery period isn't for the muscles. So whether you hit the same muscle every 48, 72, 36, 24 or 12 hours, no problem there - as far as the muscle is concerned. Like their name says, "muscles" are tough dudes.
Muscles adapt effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. There really is no sense in worrying about "oh my gosh darn, are my cute little muscles going to be ok?"

The recovery period is for the CNS. To put it lightly, compared to muscles, the CNS is a pansy. A nerd. A pencil-necked geek. A few hard sessions, a few sets to failure, and it's already crying "uncle!". The muscles, on the other hand, are just wondering, "hmm... I wonder what's for lunch?"

Want to hit the same msucle ove and over again, say in less than 48 hours? Sure. Be my guest. Just be sure to monitor your fatigue levels and manage them well as you increase frequency. Most of the time that includes lowering volume to spare the CNS.

Regards to all, and good luck!
-JV
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (jvroig @ Sep. 16 2005,4:44)]The recovery period is for the CNS. To put it lightly, compared to muscles, the CNS is a pansy. A nerd. A pencil-necked geek. A few hard sessions, a few sets to failure, and it's already crying "uncle!". The muscles, on the other hand, are just wondering, "hmm... I wonder what's for lunch?"
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Nicely put  :D Somehow makes me think about Jack Nicholson's perfomance in "A few good men"... :)

Only thing I want to add is that added frequency also means that you will need to up your caloric intake. Even though muscles can take a lot of punishment, they are also hungry - and the more we beat them up, the hungrier they get!

Regards,
/ R
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (jvroig @ Sep. 16 2005,4:44)]There seems to be some confusion as to what we actually "recover".
The "48 hours" or whatever recovery period isn't for the muscles. So whether you hit the same muscle every 48, 72, 36, 24 or 12 hours, no problem there - as far as the muscle is concerned. Like their name says, "muscles" are tough dudes.
Muscles adapt effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. There really is no sense in worrying about "oh my gosh darn, are my cute little muscles going to be ok?"
The recovery period is for the CNS. To put it lightly, compared to muscles, the CNS is a pansy. A nerd. A pencil-necked geek. A few hard sessions, a few sets to failure, and it's already crying "uncle!". The muscles, on the other hand, are just wondering, "hmm... I wonder what's for lunch?"
Want to hit the same msucle ove and over again, say in less than 48 hours? Sure. Be my guest. Just be sure to monitor your fatigue levels and manage them well as you increase frequency. Most of the time that includes lowering volume to spare the CNS.
Regards to all, and good luck!
-JV
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you have a way with words
 
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