Cardioe

TrapsOfSteal

New Member
Hi,

I'm currently doing a bulking cycle and am thinking of doing cardio on off days. Will this hinder my mass gains? What type of pre/post workout protocol should I use? Is it the same as for weight training? Also, what cardio methods are the best? I have two in mind: HIIT( High Intensity Interval Training) and the Tabatha method.

Any help appreciated,

Traps
 
In my opinion, cardio during a bulk can hinder gains in that it will burn calories that could otherwise be used for building mass. If you have a fast metabolism it can be a very bad idea. However, if you put on fat easily and often do put on fat during a bulk, then cardio can be a good way to control that.
 
agree with tot ..but if you have to do cardio try some slow steady stuff to save wasting muscle
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TOS,

You don't mention what your main goal is... if to trim fat or gain muscles...... my experience is that it is awfully tough to obtain both at the same time... I have tried to walk on that thin line and actually it looks like the gurus are right.. you have to choose one or the other.

Anyway, regardless of your objective do both, cardio and weight training... adjusting nutrition, frequency, duration and intensity depending on what you want... but I believe it is far better to trim fat first until single digit along with some muscle damage control and then go for the muscles all the way with cycles of bulking and cutting...... if you wish we can discuss this in more detail.

cheers
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(latinblast @ Mar. 29 2006,08:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">TOS,

You don't mention what your main goal is... if to trim fat or gain muscles...... my experience is that it is awfully tough to obtain both at the same time... I have tried to walk on that thin line and actually it looks like the gurus are right.. you have to choose one or the other.

Anyway, regardless of your objective do both, cardio and weight training... adjusting nutrition, frequency, duration and intensity depending on what you want... but I believe it is far better to trim fat first until single digit along with some muscle damage control and then go for the muscles all the way with cycles of bulking and cutting...... if you wish we can discuss this in more detail.

cheers  
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latinblast

how much/type cardio do you do on your bulking cycle after youve dieted down to single digits?

ive recently dieted down to that point after yrs of bulk only mentality. this was my 1st diet &quot;down&quot; and it took a few months to find what combo of diet/cardio/lifting worked best for me. now im planning my 1st gaining phase from this bw/% so im trying to get cardio ideas from those who have been there.

i certainly dont expect to stay as lean and gain but im in new territory (for me) with trying to not possibly waste the last few months or the next few with the wrong cardio plan.

after yrs of trial and error if feel comfortable w/diet for gain, maint and now cutting but the cardio during bulk for max hypertro. and min. fat is a new one for me.

any thoughts would be appreciated
 
bluejacket,

I am sorry to reply late but I am on the other side of the world
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.. so, I must wait until my day here, which is your mid night over there in the USA.

ok... good question about what cardio exercise protocol to do during bulking up... it is very important.... here is what I have found for myself and read also in some other web sites:

1) keep doing cardio.... I use jogging or rowing... now, the features of my cardio at this stage are the following:

a) intensity: in my aerobic range, I cycle them, 2 weeks in my lower aerobic range, 2 wks in my middle range and 2 weeks in my upper range; this is in order for your body not to get used and then it will mean nothing... your aerobic range is between 70%-80% of your HBRmax and your HBRmax= 220-age

b) duration: 30 minutes during bulking phase and (40-45 minutes during cutting phase)

c) don't try to do HIIT with cardio during bulking phase, at least it is not my favourite, when I have done it I have hit the wall faster, apparently HIIT imposes extra overload to your CNS... and also I feel that my metabolism continues for a longer period of time after cardio, therefore you burn more calories and therefore would need to compensate with more food.

d) Important: EAT LIKE A MANIAC ... don't be shy, a lot and healthy.... you will see how difficult is to gain weight from 1 single digit.... you will gain theh first 2-3 kgs very easily (as if your body was starving for nutrients) but after that it is very difficult, your body fat will barely move.... I realized that my Base metabolic rate increases...... so, the net effect is that in order to increase some 250 gr. per week (approx 0.5 lb) I would need to have a daily surplus calorie of 250-300 and that is tough with the higher base metabolic rate... to give you an idea, I am bulking right now and I have taken my weight from 165 lb (after cutting) to 175 lb in 2 months with an average calorie intake of 3800.... I feel I am eating the whole day... my body fat has increased from 9% to 12% but I will start next week iwth 2 week fat cutting to put it at 10% before trying to get inflated again
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... I give top priority to having the six-packs in sight all the time.... gaining of muscles will be slower because of the repeated cutting periods but steady and always you will be and look in shape

any question... feel free
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... and cheers
 
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention an importan variable for your bulking period cardio..... frequency. I do it every other day, that is 3/4 times a week
 
very interesting stuff. thanks
i like the idea of constantly changing the intensity of the cardio. i live in the mountains and most of my cardio involves hiking &quot;up&quot; so this should fit in nicely.

i am a bit surprised at the amount of cals your taking in at your body weight. i know everyone is differant but my previous bulk experience has shown way too much fat gain with a lot of cals and carbs. perhaps it was because i wasnt starting out lean but ive done bwx20-25 hi protien, mod to hi carb, low fat and at my age (38) i got bigger but a lot was fat and not enough was muscle. i was planning to go bwx16-17 for at least a month and evaluate gains from there(maint for me is bwx13). do you feel starting a bulk at a lower bf your BMR is too fast for that many cals?
 
he he he..... don't worry about age is not an issue.... If I tell you my age you will be picked up from the floor by the fire dept squad..... and I tell you I feel in better shape now than in my 20's... even many 20's yo kids at the gym come asking me for advice......

BJ, you have hit the nail when you say: [/QUOTE]&quot;my previous bulk experience has shown way too much fat gain with a lot of cals and carbs. perhaps it was because i wasnt starting out lean but ive done bwx20-25 hi protien, mod to hi carb, low fat and at my age (38) i got bigger but a lot was fat and not enough was muscle&quot;
I cannot overstress that aspect with my friends..... I am of the opinion that

a) if you start bulking up when still being at a high level of fat each gram that you put on is more noticeable,

b) also, for some reason your base metabolic rate increases making it more difficult to make muscles because you are spending more calories and nutrients just maintaining your body alive instead of building up muscle tissues.....

c) also, do you know what I think is the main thing ??..... perhaps, after all your muscles are getting bigger but it is just that they are being covered by a layer of fat.... perhaps the fat is what you measure and that is not solid at all.... but soft.....if you get rid of the fat, they will be shown, your muscles will have a harder look and more definition.

hmmmm .......bfx20-25 sounds reasonable for bulking up... so, you are at 16%-17%... so, your six-packs can not be seen clearly..... would you mind going down all the way to 9%-10%... don't worry about your age.... I was told 1 trillion times that doctors say that below 15% for a 40+ yo guy is dangerous ..... well, I was making fun of everybody telling them at 16% that I was feeling dizzy and at 15% I fell in coma and at 10% dead...
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miscommunication on the last post.

my bodyfat (bf)is @9-10% currently
(bw) was abbrev. i was using for body weight as in body weight x 13 is maint. cals for me and was going to bulk using  BW x 16-17.

either way i got the meaning of your last post.
i believe you and i think alike on many of the same issues but i will disagree about the age thing. i realize this may be unique to me and those of similar build/metabolism but i have been lifting since 1991 and all thru my 20s i was on a variety of &quot;good enough&quot; lifting programs and eating everything that couldnt get away from me yet i couldnt even put on fat let alone muscle. friends and lifting partners gained 2-3x as much as i did doing/eating similar stuff. anyway that all changed at @32-33 my metab. seemed to slow a little and the gains started coming.

well to make a long story longer, im down from 215 (@18%bf) to 184 (9-10%) and feel good about it. im just adjusting to feeling smaller (clothes etc) after 15yrs of trying to get bigger. looking forward to going back up the right way. thanks for the input.
 
Yah so I will go with Totentanz and not do any cardio during this bulking cycle. After all, I am an extomorph to start off with. Latinblast, if cardio on off days makes your metabolism go up, why do you do it during bulking? I get your point of wanting to be lean all year round but still, from what I understand, you are eating more than you would during bulking cycles because of the addition of cardio since your metabolism is raised. Isn't this just a waste of food, time and money? Yes you are burning more calories by doing cardio but you are also eating more. Doesn't this just all cancel out? Anyways, back to my original question: what are the most effective cardio protocols during cutting and what pre/post cardio nutrition do you use?

Thanks for all your help,

Traps
 
No offense to anyone, but it's usually the guys who want to be lean all year long that stay small most of their lives. Also, there are no real hardgainers in my book - just undereaters. I always thought I was a hardgainer but once I started counting calories, I realized the problem. My maintenance happened to be like 3000 something, which is pretty high for how small I was at the time. I thought I was eating everything in sight, but turned out I was eating roughly 2500-3000 on average, and had to go up to 4000 most days to gain weight reliably.
Cardio, obviously, would have been a very bad idea for me on a bulk. In fact, I only do it when I'm not bulking for the health benefits. I can cut just by lifting, I'm sure many of you other ecto types are the same.

Cardio is great, but the common belief that it must always be a staple of your program is sort of misleading. It has good health benefits, but if you are bulking and putting on fat, more cardio isn't necesarily the answer. You could just cut back calories a bit. Obviously if you are putting on a ton of fat, you are either eating too much or you partition very poorly.

What was my point again? I'm not sure, got kinda lost there. Oh well.
 
all this time i thought i was one of the REAL hard gainers, its tough being one of the fake ones.

totz i wish i had your book back in my 20s i would have known to stop eating 5k a day (@165bw) and went to &quot;4k most days to gain weight reliably.&quot;

either way TOS, if you are an ecto than dont worry about cardio at all for now. you can bring that in later when your more concerned with a &quot;soft middle&quot; than you are with overall size.

remember, everybody is differant........find what works for you.
 
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(Totentanz @ Mar. 30 2006,18:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No offense to anyone, but it's usually the guys who want to be lean all year long that stay small most of their lives. Also, there are no real hardgainers in my book - just undereaters. I always thought I was a hardgainer but once I started counting calories, I realized the problem. My maintenance happened to be like 3000 something, which is pretty high for how small I was at the time. I thought I was eating everything in sight, but turned out I was eating roughly 2500-3000 on average, and had to go up to 4000 most days to gain weight reliably.
Cardio, obviously, would have been a very bad idea for me on a bulk. In fact, I only do it when I'm not bulking for the health benefits. I can cut just by lifting, I'm sure many of you other ecto types are the same.

Cardio is great, but the common belief that it must always be a staple of your program is sort of misleading. It has good health benefits, but if you are bulking and putting on fat, more cardio isn't necesarily the answer. You could just cut back calories a bit. Obviously if you are putting on a ton of fat, you are either eating too much or you partition very poorly.

What was my point again? I'm not sure, got kinda lost there. Oh well.</div>
i agree 100 percent with this !! (sounds like he is speaking from me)

totentanz what book? have you a link ?

greetz
choco
 
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(bluejacket @ Mar. 30 2006,23:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">all this time i thought i was one of the REAL hard gainers, its tough being one of the fake ones.

totz i wish i had your book back in my 20s i would have known to stop eating 5k a day (@165bw) and went to &quot;4k most days to gain weight reliably.&quot;

either way TOS, if you are an ecto than dont worry about cardio at all for now. you can bring that in later when your more concerned with a &quot;soft middle&quot; than you are with overall size.

remember, everybody is differant........find what works for you.</div>
Do you count your calories every day? There is no way for the calories to magically disappear unless you have some sort of problem with your body. Most people who say they eat a ton but still don't gain weight are misreporting their calorie intake... just like the fat people who claim not to be losing weight on 1000 kcalories a day, but neglect to mention the dozen donuts they didn't count, the three cups of sugar they put in their coffee and the mound of butter they used to cook their eggs in.

I'm willing to bet that if you were put in a controlled environment and given exact amounts to eat, kept under observation, etc etc, eventually you would start to gain weight rapidly.

I knew of a guy with a thyroid problem who couldn't gain weight no matter what. So... maybe something you might want to get checked out if you seriously cannot gain weight on 5000 kcalories a day at 165 lbs.
 
hi guys, long time no see, he he he.... I could not reply before because here in the middle east fridays is day off.... but here I am back again (it will be a long comment).

Thanks for your reply to my comments and let me tell all of you...... all of you are absolutely right about what you are saying..... so, I will start answering one by one:

bluejacket: I'm sorry, yes I misread your figures.... so, if you are at 9%-10% you know the feeling... he he he.....I think you are thinking the same as me...... first dead before putting on fat above 13% again, he he he... yes, also I had to downsize on my clothing, not because the muscles were gone but because of my waist, I went from 36 to 30, but now the little problem is that my legs are a tight in my jeans, but it is ok...... I had the same experience as you I lifted during my 20's and did not gain a pound despite eating like a horse... I am an ectomorph all the way, only when I hit my 30 I could increase my size and still increasing it but because of the aerobic (or continuous cutting phases) it is a slower process but steady.

Traps of steal &amp; totentanz: my friends, you 2 are absolutely right, I am eating more than normal because I do cardio and even play tennis for 1-2 hours a week and I am approaching the triathlon training season, so it will be even worse.... and you are right, it could be a waste of money, suplements, food, etc.... in fact, I spend per month approx $250 food and $200 of proteins and suplements.... but I do it because of 2 reasons: a) I really like the lean +strong look, actually my objective in bodybuilding is not to get huge like my countryman gustavo badell or coleman (I don't think it would look cool for a 50 yo guy anyway)... but I want to have a very good fitness overall, decent size (much more than average though, he he) and like an all-round good health look and especially superdefined 6-packs plus obliques, b) I am close to my 50's.... man... at this age we are asking control tower for permission to land underground for ever if we don't watch our level of fat and cholesterol, in my family we have had some heart diseases cases .... so, I want to keep my fat and cholesterol low; and therefore I consider my heart one more muscle that needs to be exercised with as much (or even more) diligence as my biceps or chest..... even though, I consider myself more on the bodybuilding side than on the cardio side.

The best cardio protocols that I have experienced is something like this:

- exercises that I have tried and seen worked the best (raising your hbr in a steady way and making your muscles really work) are in this order: rowing, jogging, spinning, swimming.
- duration &amp; frequency if you are cutting you have to go to at least 45 min. 4-5 times a week; but this will exert some pressure on the catabolic side, so you need to take some muscle damage control
- time of the day: as soon as you get up in the morning with empty stomach (actually with 8 ounces or protein whey, see below)
- pre-workout nutrition: yes, it is important.... I drink 8 ounces (1 scoop) of whey protein (24 gr of protein, low fat and low carbohydrate, plus 1 capsule of 100 mg vitamin C.....this is important because you don't want to waste 20 minutes burning glucose from your bloodstream, you need your body to go directly into your fat storage from the go.. that is why the early in the morning approach....the protein and vitamin C is one of the measurements to minimize muscle break down and diminishing the level of cortison that tends to be elevated when you wake up and when you run.
- Post workout: a good breakfast full of complex carbohydrates and protein... you need to continue giving your muscles nutrients and also replenish the glycogen in your muscles, otherwise muscles will be broken down to obtain glucose.... I would like to include another category:
- Nutrition during cutting phase: try to count calories and be consistently with a 500 calorie deficit, don't try to be greedier by going to 1000 calorie deficit because this is highly catabolic, I already went that path and can testify.... a good mix is p=30%, f=20%, c=50%... your c should come 90% or more of complex carbohydrates, your f absolutely from good sources such as olive oil, flasxeed oil, nuts, salmon, etc... by the way, if you roast or grill your salmon (do not fry it) collect the oil that expels and take advantage of it for your salad.. this is an excellent source of omega-3
- suplements: multivitamin, I can not overstress the importance of this... vitamin B and the rest is essential for us, bodybuilders.... also take anti-oxidants because by doing exercises, especially the aerobic type we are producing free radicals which is very harmful in the long run...

well, I think, I did not miss anything... if you do this... and get down to 9% I can guarantee you that the way you look will be so healthy (you will not look like a war prisoner !!!, but more like The Rock, he he he) that you would rather sacrifice muscle growth speed for this look... don't take me wrong, you will be able to grow muscles but you will not grow muscle that quickly.... at the gym where I am, all the arabs are bulking up all the time like hell, so, they are big, with big muscles (anybody would say muscles but for me it is muscles + a hell of fat) but small bellies or love handles or no muscles definition, no 6-packs (to me that is not appealing; it is the same as working only on your upper body and still having chicken legs).....having a strong and noticeable midsection muscles makes you look more powerful, more balanced.....I believe the objective should be..... a symmetric look, a balanced look, though always trying to get bigger.... we have to be patient.... if we do the fundamentals day-in, day-out... we will get there, big and symmetric, healthy.... of course, everybody has his/her own set of objectives.... it is a personal thing.... or is it I am an old fashioned guy ??
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... it could be, he he he.


hey... cheers and regards to everybody
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totz
we are talking about 10yrs ago so my memory is not perfect for all of it but i do have my workout/diet journals from the mid 90s. i would hit 4-5k a day for months and i would gain... but only 1lb a month at most. sought a lot of advice at the time and manipulated pro, fat and carbs to try and see a change. even the most experienced guys at the gym were mystified by my slow pace. things got better @30 and really changed about 32-33 so now im able to respond more &quot;normally&quot; to cal intake.

oh well, im not bitching or using excuses it just the experience ive had. i do agree that most lifters main gain problem is under eating. the upside from my perpective is all the trial and error over the years has given me some good ideas how my body responds to all the variables especially for gaining. now the dieting down for the 1st time ever (still hard to believe when i think of the old days)was a new exper. but i learned a lot from that one too.
 
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