changing exercises for 2nd cycle

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waray214

Member
so i'm almost done with my first cycle. i've loved it and have seen some good results. for my 2nd cycle i want to change some of the exercises. my first question is, is this a good idea or is it more recommended to stick with your exercises from the 1st cycle? secondly, the problem is for most of these exercises i dont know my RMs. should i just estimate these or should i actually test the RMs? that would be difficult though because i dont want to SD after my first cycle then have to test my RMs and SD again. i think I could approximate my RMs pretty well though.

here's my current routine and here's the routine i want to try next cycle...any advice would be great

Current routine

Squats/Deads (alt)
Flat bbell bench/Dips (alt)
Pull-ups
Bbell rows
Dbell shoulder press
Bbell curls
Close-grip bench press/close-grip rev grip bench (alt)
Dbell shrugs

New routine

A/B
Squats/ Deads
Slight Inc dbell bench/ Dips
Pull-ups
Bbell rows
Mil bbell press/ Lat raises Rear Delt raise (superset)
Bbell curls/ Inc dbell curls
Close-grip bench/ rev grip bench
Dbell shrugs
 
Hi waray,

Arent we all looking for improvement? So long as we dont get bogged down with too much change, often for the sake of change, it is fine to make slight alterations to our routines every so often.
If something isnt working for us, then why stick with it?

Your routine looks fine, as does the alterations - there are only a couple of changes anyway?

Yes, estimating your RMs is fine too, if you're happy with that? You can always adjust as you go along if you have misjudged. If you find the weights too light as you go through the cycle, either add weight for the second set, and then increase the weights for the rest of the micro cycle, or just add an extra set.
If the weights are too heavy, either start clustering the reps, to get you through the set, or do the same weight for the next workout.
It is easy enough to do.

Looking at both routines, personally, I find flat benches stronger - I can lift slightly more weight - this, to me, is more important than any, minimal benefit from inclines? I would stick with them, alternated with dips, as per your first routine.

The only other thing: reverse grip benches? Really? Close grip are great. Rev grip is weaker, so you lift less - I wouldnt bother. Especially if you are doing dips aswell.

Otherwise both routines look great.
Stick with them, and good luck.

Brix
 
Regardning Low-Incline Bench, I disagree with Brixtonian.
It only takes a slight incline to reduce sholder joint streign significantly, wtih only a sleight decrease in weight. I consider that a good tradeoff.

As for change for the sake of change, I totally agree. IMO you should only replace lifts with better ones.

Why would you want to SD before your RM tests?
Just do your RM tests for your new lifts when your cycle is done, and then SD.
 
i agree. changing just for change sake isn't optimal. one should change in the name of improvement. so with that in mind, here's why i've selected the following changes in my routine. please critique...

1. slight incline instead of flat bench
- i've made some good gains with the flat bench this cycle but i'm but my upper chest is lacking. hst advocates the use of slight incline over flat so i was thinking of going with a slight incline the next cycle to hit a good balance of my upper and middle chest. right now with flat bench and dips, my upper chest is being pretty much completely ignored. plus i think slight incline bench is a better complement for dips as the motion of dips and flat bench more closely mirror each other. however, i can lift more weight with flat bench than incline and thus might get more bang for my buck with flat bench...thoughts?

2. mil bbell press, lat raises, rear delt raises instead of dbell shoulder press
typically i prefer dumbbell shoulder press over barbell however my medial and posterior delts seem to really be lacking, especially compared to my anterior delts. i think a good variety of complementing shoulder exercises could really help bring up my lacking delts. my rear and medial delts just dont seem to get hit well enough with shoulder press, pull-ups, and rows. i've read simplify and win several times and fausto (the creater of the hallowed sticky) commented that his shoulder routine was mil bbell press and a lat/rear delt raise combination. thoughts?

3. why i include reverse grip bench (close-grip)
i like reverse grip bench because it targets a different part of the tricep, the medial head, as opposed to the lateral head which gets hit by close-grip bench/dips etc. however, i can lift about 10 pounds more on the close-grip bench than rev grip. i know a lot of people dont do rev grip bench for safety reasons and simply for the fact that they lift a lot less than other tricep exercises. thoughts?
 
Hi waray. I have some thougts on this.
waray214 said:
1. slight incline instead of flat bench
- i've made some good gains with the flat bench this cycle but i'm but my upper chest is lacking. hst advocates the use of slight incline over flat so i was thinking of going with a slight incline the next cycle to hit a good balance of my upper and middle chest. right now with flat bench and dips, my upper chest is being pretty much completely ignored. plus i think slight incline bench is a better complement for dips as the motion of dips and flat bench more closely mirror each other. however, i can lift more weight with flat bench than incline and thus might get more bang for my buck with flat bench...thoughts?
Click to expand...
HST advocates the incline, for the decreased shoulder streign.. I'm Sure I read that in the FAQ somewhere. Not for added stress on upper pecs. My thougts on this, would pretty much be a copy/paste to the rest of your lift choises, so wont comment them directly.

What i'm reading is you, trying to make up for lagging bodyparts, by isolating them more. I don't think that is the better option. If you'd stick with me on this, with the flat bench/incline bench switch as an example.

How is it that you are actually putting more stress on the upper pecks, by doing this?
Upper chest fibers do not get stronger, when isolating them more. As a result you cannot increase the load on them, and still complete the lift.. You are forced to decrease the weight used.
In actuallity, what you are doing is decreasing the load on the lower chest fibers, while keeping the load on upper chest the same. At some points durring the lift, maybe even lower.
This of course, transfers to any lift and is why we use the lifts with the greater mechanical advantages.

If you are behind on upper peck, you should use add an additional exercise. Do not exclude the bread-and-butter.
Actually sleight incline vs flat bench, was a bad example, as the difference is minimal, but i hope you get my point.

EDIT: I think this came out, as me dictating the truth.
This is my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Lateralus said:
Regardning Low-Incline Bench, I disagree with Brixtonian.
It only takes a slight incline to reduce sholder joint streign significantly, wtih only a sleight decrease in weight. I consider that a good tradeoff.
.
Click to expand...

Its a personal thing. I get better results, and lift more weight, from flat - and decline - benches, than incline. Therefore, I get better growth.
Maybe thats just me. I dont suffer from any noticeable strain from flat benches.

I do like declines too, and again, can lift heavier on them, but find the movement too similar to dips, so I just stick with dips usually.

The only rotator issue I have had, is from over extending on dips.

Brix
 
Well yeah, I'd agree its personal matter, but more on the level of attitude. I believe anyone would get slightly better gains from flat bench, as the mechanical advantage is greater.

However, noone knows, what the future brings. As joints and ligaments do not signal overuse (as muscles would) until its pratically to late, i'd consider the better-safe-than-sorry atitude better. The more experienced lifter would (and should) ofcourse be more confident when having done heavy flat-bench lifts for years, without any problems.

Sad to say, that is not me. I've had cuff issues before and it will plague you for months at least. Even when shifting to inclines. Theese kinds of issues would far outweigh, what was gained from choosing flat bench.
 
To be honest, I have spent most of the 25yrs I've been lifting, doing incline presses, on a slight incline, (as opposed to the 45 degree bench I see many struggling on.)
I only swapped to flat bench about 2 or 3 yrs ago to increase the weight I was lifting, to build more mass. For me, thats working - though the most mass I built was with dips.

I have had, for a few years, and do still occaisonally have rotator cuff issues, but, as I said, they were brought on by heavy, stretched dips (I'm 260lb) rather than benching.
Getting older doesnt help either.
My form is slow and good, my elbows arent wide, and neither is my grip - all factors to reducing tendon strain - for me.
Plus I have regular physio, specifically for my rotators.

I agree that looking after our joints is the most important thing, but I still believe that, done safely and with proper form, flat benches are as safe as inclines. And you can lift more weight...

Just my opinion

Brix
 
In that case, I'd consider your approach as valid as "mine". And the point is the same. You should look after your joints, which goes double for the rotator cuffs, from the very begining until the end.
The closer grib, arms @45 degrees aproach works for me to. But it in fact, allows for less weight, than the wider grip, wider angle, sleight incline aproach.
This would of course be, yet another, personal matter.

The 45 degree inclines you mentioned, would allow for way less weight, and allow to much front delt involvemnet.
I'd never go for those.
 
Form on flat bench is pretty important if you want to avoid joint issues. I also feel that back strength - overall back strength, I'm talking upper back, erectors and lats - is important in preventing issues from flat bench. I don't ever have shoulder problems from flat benching, but I use the typical powerlifter setup - strong arch, feet firm on the floor, shoulder blades tucked, chin against chest, elbows under wrists at all times, bar held low in the palm without the hands bent way back - this seems the safest way to bench in my experience. I see a lot of people who bend their hands back to hold the bar, creating an almost 90 degree angle at the wrist joint - very bad for the wrists. You can get away with that stuff when the lifting is still light but as you gain strength you will start having problems. Flaring the elbows out and keeping the back flat against the bench also seems to be a big cause of shoulder problems in the people I have observed.
 
I'll just add experince to the hands bent back the bar -thing. I used to rest the bar on the near-wrist part of the palm, using my thumbs for balance. Thought it was great for balance up to the point, where the weight was enough to cause joint leak. Still have a nice memory, in the form of a Ganglion cyst. Had it for a long time and don't think it will go away on it's own.
Eventually you get tired of adding every rookie mistake to your experiences and start reading.
 
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