When we are talking about Chins, are we referring to the palms facing away (reverse grip) type that I had thought. I got a little confused when some members were talking about narrow-grip (palms facing body) form used to hit biceps more...I thought these were considered pull-ups. If for example one of these forms is chosen, would the other be neglected or would you just do both? It would seem that the narrow grip pull-up would have less impact on the lats, so I wouldn't want to ditch it completely...but the workout might get too difficult if doing 2 exercises that are both very strenuous and similar, one would most likely suffer.
Chin-ups or Pull-ups
- Thread starter soflsun
- Start date
Chins, strangely, can sometimes refer to either chin-ups (palms facing you) or pull-ups (palms away), though most people I've seen mean the former.
Both variations are arguably worth doing. However, if we're talking about a medium to narrow grip, pullups lose their "point," imho. Why?
Because with a narrower grip, the exact same function is being worked (shoulder extension, one of the primary functions of the lats), but with the weak link(s) of the elbow flexors being in an even weaker position (same reason you're weaker in a reverse curl versus regular curl). This means quite literally everything will be comparatively less stimulated, from the lats to the elbow flexors.
However, as you widen the grip a bit in the pullup (which isn't really possible/safe with a palms facing you grip), the main action actually becomes shoulder adduction, another function of the lats, and some people "feel" this better in the lats, and it does seem to help with development beyond just working shoulder extension ala a chin-up. The only downside here is that wider grips = LESS stretch on the lats, as opposed to the idea that wider = more stretch which is quite common.
Both variations are arguably worth doing. However, if we're talking about a medium to narrow grip, pullups lose their "point," imho. Why?
Because with a narrower grip, the exact same function is being worked (shoulder extension, one of the primary functions of the lats), but with the weak link(s) of the elbow flexors being in an even weaker position (same reason you're weaker in a reverse curl versus regular curl). This means quite literally everything will be comparatively less stimulated, from the lats to the elbow flexors.
However, as you widen the grip a bit in the pullup (which isn't really possible/safe with a palms facing you grip), the main action actually becomes shoulder adduction, another function of the lats, and some people "feel" this better in the lats, and it does seem to help with development beyond just working shoulder extension ala a chin-up. The only downside here is that wider grips = LESS stretch on the lats, as opposed to the idea that wider = more stretch which is quite common.
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
Well, I do neutral grip (palms facing each other) pull ups, hands just about shoulder width apart!
The US military has always referred to the supinated (palms facing) grip as being chinups, and pronated grip is a pullup. MOST, but not all BB;ers do as well, as for some strange reason it got confused somewhen. Probably from untrained high school coaches and gym instructors.
Mikey made great points about the stretch. My best lat growth came when I went narrow after years of wide pullups.
Mikey made great points about the stretch. My best lat growth came when I went narrow after years of wide pullups.
Thanks so much guys. Mikey, your comments make great sense and quad backs it up with military data! So I basically had it completely ass backwards...Anyway, this being the case, I can underdtand why pull-ups are generally done wide (as I do) and chins are usually done narrow or at least narrower.
My question now is why are chins on of "the big 4" and not pull-ups. If we are doing this as primarily a back exercise, shouldn't pull-ups be considered superior over chins; especially for lat development which is why we do them??? IMO, pull-ups are also MUCH harder than chins...another reason this seems to be a superior compund movement. Please, all comments welcome.
My question now is why are chins on of "the big 4" and not pull-ups. If we are doing this as primarily a back exercise, shouldn't pull-ups be considered superior over chins; especially for lat development which is why we do them??? IMO, pull-ups are also MUCH harder than chins...another reason this seems to be a superior compund movement. Please, all comments welcome.
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(soflsun @ Sep. 18 2007,21:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks so much guys. Mikey, your comments make great sense and quad backs it up with military data! So I basically had it completely ass backwards...Anyway, this being the case, I can underdtand why pull-ups are generally done wide (as I do) and chins are usually done narrow or at least narrower.
My question now is why are chins on of "the big 4" and not pull-ups. If we are doing this as primarily a back exercise, shouldn't pull-ups be considered superior over chins; especially for lat development which is why we do them??? IMO, pull-ups are also MUCH harder than chins...another reason this seems to be a superior compund movement. Please, all comments welcome.</div>
I guess the simple answer is you're working more stuff overall in a chin-up, which is also why most people are stronger in the movement.
That said, medium to medium-wide grip pullups are very much worth doing, imho, but I actually think chins don't get enough love. Some people consider it an "arm" exercise, for example, when it's as much of a lat exercise as pullups.
(soflsun @ Sep. 18 2007,21:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks so much guys. Mikey, your comments make great sense and quad backs it up with military data! So I basically had it completely ass backwards...Anyway, this being the case, I can underdtand why pull-ups are generally done wide (as I do) and chins are usually done narrow or at least narrower.
My question now is why are chins on of "the big 4" and not pull-ups. If we are doing this as primarily a back exercise, shouldn't pull-ups be considered superior over chins; especially for lat development which is why we do them??? IMO, pull-ups are also MUCH harder than chins...another reason this seems to be a superior compund movement. Please, all comments welcome.</div>
I guess the simple answer is you're working more stuff overall in a chin-up, which is also why most people are stronger in the movement.
That said, medium to medium-wide grip pullups are very much worth doing, imho, but I actually think chins don't get enough love. Some people consider it an "arm" exercise, for example, when it's as much of a lat exercise as pullups.
Thanks mikey, but wouldn't the wider grip of a pull-up acticate the lats more than a narrower chin grip? I was always told that the wider you go on pull-downs or pull-ups the more the lats were and the LESS the biceps were used. When I do seated cable rows with a very narrow neutral grip for example, it definitely feels like the biceps are getting hit harder than with a wide grip.
I
imported_dojomatic
Guest
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(quadancer @ Sep. 17 2007,22:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The US military has always referred to the supinated (palms facing) grip as being chinups, and pronated grip is a pullup.</div>
That's how I always thought of it. EXRX seems to have different names. They consider the pullup and chinup the same exercise. At least, the descriptions and illustrations are the same. They call the 'palms-in' type an Underhand Chinup and the 'palms facing each other' a Close Grip Chinup.
http://exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
I second mikey's tip. I find a thumbless grip for pullups much more confortable and natural.
(quadancer @ Sep. 17 2007,22:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The US military has always referred to the supinated (palms facing) grip as being chinups, and pronated grip is a pullup.</div>
That's how I always thought of it. EXRX seems to have different names. They consider the pullup and chinup the same exercise. At least, the descriptions and illustrations are the same. They call the 'palms-in' type an Underhand Chinup and the 'palms facing each other' a Close Grip Chinup.
http://exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
I second mikey's tip. I find a thumbless grip for pullups much more confortable and natural.
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(soflsun @ Sep. 19 2007,08:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks mikey, but wouldn't the wider grip of a pull-up acticate the lats more than a narrower chin grip? I was always told that the wider you go on pull-downs or pull-ups the more the lats were and the LESS the biceps were used. When I do seated cable rows with a very narrow neutral grip for example, it definitely feels like the biceps are getting hit harder than with a wide grip.</div>
Well, whoever told you that had it all back to front. Just think about where your upper arms need to be in order to maximally stretch your lats (and Teres Major) – yeah, up high and close to your head. Also, a narrower grip allows your elbows to be drawn down closer to your body in the fully contracted position. So, overall, you get a greater range of motion of your humeri(?) if you use a narrower grip, which equates with more work for your lats.
Using a very narrow, neutral grip for seated cable rows will hit your bis, brachialis and brachioradialis pretty hard. The biceps brachii will be in a stronger position when the hands are fully supinated so using a parallel grip will involve the brachialis more (like when doing hammer curls).
The other good thing about a narrower grip chin is that your bis are in a strong position so you can use more load than with a pronated grip.
Try a parallel grip for pull-downs or pull-ups too.
Overall, I think trying a good variety of movements will help ensure you balance the development of the main target muscles and other synergists and you will find what works best for you.
(soflsun @ Sep. 19 2007,08:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks mikey, but wouldn't the wider grip of a pull-up acticate the lats more than a narrower chin grip? I was always told that the wider you go on pull-downs or pull-ups the more the lats were and the LESS the biceps were used. When I do seated cable rows with a very narrow neutral grip for example, it definitely feels like the biceps are getting hit harder than with a wide grip.</div>
Well, whoever told you that had it all back to front. Just think about where your upper arms need to be in order to maximally stretch your lats (and Teres Major) – yeah, up high and close to your head. Also, a narrower grip allows your elbows to be drawn down closer to your body in the fully contracted position. So, overall, you get a greater range of motion of your humeri(?) if you use a narrower grip, which equates with more work for your lats.
Using a very narrow, neutral grip for seated cable rows will hit your bis, brachialis and brachioradialis pretty hard. The biceps brachii will be in a stronger position when the hands are fully supinated so using a parallel grip will involve the brachialis more (like when doing hammer curls).
The other good thing about a narrower grip chin is that your bis are in a strong position so you can use more load than with a pronated grip.
Try a parallel grip for pull-downs or pull-ups too.
Overall, I think trying a good variety of movements will help ensure you balance the development of the main target muscles and other synergists and you will find what works best for you.
_tim
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you can do this given your gym setup - but one day, do a test. I did, and it was astounding. Try doing a set of close-grip chins, a set of medium-grip pullups, a set of close, neutral-grip pulls, and a set of wider, neutral-grip pulls.
What I found (or felt, rather) based on my trial:
close-grip chins nailed my biceps and the interior parts of my lats, my rhomboids and parts of my lower traps;
medium-grip pullups nailed the meaty outsides of my lats and felt incredible;
close, neutral-grip pulls seemingly hit the middle-inside (meaning halfway between my spine and the outside edge of my lats), and medial delts;
wide, neutral-grip pulls just decimated my lats in every possible way
Give 'em all a shot and see what feels good. Bottom line, your biceps engage, and your lats do work. You simply cannot go wrong with chins or pullups in any configuration.
What I found (or felt, rather) based on my trial:
close-grip chins nailed my biceps and the interior parts of my lats, my rhomboids and parts of my lower traps;
medium-grip pullups nailed the meaty outsides of my lats and felt incredible;
close, neutral-grip pulls seemingly hit the middle-inside (meaning halfway between my spine and the outside edge of my lats), and medial delts;
wide, neutral-grip pulls just decimated my lats in every possible way
Give 'em all a shot and see what feels good. Bottom line, your biceps engage, and your lats do work. You simply cannot go wrong with chins or pullups in any configuration.
I
imported_drpierredebs
Guest
just use all the grips, all the time.
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(soflsun @ Sep. 19 2007,03:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks mikey, but wouldn't the wider grip of a pull-up acticate the lats more than a narrower chin grip? I was always told that the wider you go on pull-downs or pull-ups the more the lats were and the LESS the biceps were used. When I do seated cable rows with a very narrow neutral grip for example, it definitely feels like the biceps are getting hit harder than with a wide grip.</div>
See comment above regarding shoulder adduction (wide grip pullups) vs. shoulder extension (narrower grip chins).
The answer would be "no," it is not working the lats less, just working the elbow flexors (biceps etc) more.
(soflsun @ Sep. 19 2007,03:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks mikey, but wouldn't the wider grip of a pull-up acticate the lats more than a narrower chin grip? I was always told that the wider you go on pull-downs or pull-ups the more the lats were and the LESS the biceps were used. When I do seated cable rows with a very narrow neutral grip for example, it definitely feels like the biceps are getting hit harder than with a wide grip.</div>
See comment above regarding shoulder adduction (wide grip pullups) vs. shoulder extension (narrower grip chins).
The answer would be "no," it is not working the lats less, just working the elbow flexors (biceps etc) more.
Yes, it's a mechanical rule, the wider you grip, the more the muscles of the back are needed to pull with. You're creating a mechanical disadvantage...but the problem with that, if done exclusively, is the lesser ROM.
I think the advice of doing it all is good, depending upon what you wish to target or ignore. For overall mass, I'd think that too much skipping around would be less effective than using a couple of alternates, gaining strength in definitive directions rather than "overall fitness" sort of training. Circuits anyone?
I think the advice of doing it all is good, depending upon what you wish to target or ignore. For overall mass, I'd think that too much skipping around would be less effective than using a couple of alternates, gaining strength in definitive directions rather than "overall fitness" sort of training. Circuits anyone?
its a semantic issue, but still...
chin-ups: the bar "moves" towards the chin and restricts the line of motion to the front of your body; the body moves with an angle towards the bar (wider grip, pronated - adduction and a little transverse extension; closer grip - extension and a little transverse extension).
pull-ups: your hands are free to travel in a line through/across your head, and there is no restriction by a bar; strait line of motion can be maintained, more of sh. adduction.
grip can vary.
by the way, the differentiation is in English. in my language, the exercise is called the same as the "Horizontal bar", which is called: "suspense" ...
chin-ups: the bar "moves" towards the chin and restricts the line of motion to the front of your body; the body moves with an angle towards the bar (wider grip, pronated - adduction and a little transverse extension; closer grip - extension and a little transverse extension).
pull-ups: your hands are free to travel in a line through/across your head, and there is no restriction by a bar; strait line of motion can be maintained, more of sh. adduction.
grip can vary.
by the way, the differentiation is in English. in my language, the exercise is called the same as the "Horizontal bar", which is called: "suspense" ...
For a while now, I've been doing both. Sort of. I do chins on the chinning bar, hanging weight as necessary. Then at the end of my workout, I do pulldowns with a wide grip, palms away. It seems to be working well for me. The focus is still on chins, where I can use a lot more load, but I still progress on the pulldowns when possible as well.